Who ya gonna vote for? (Private Poll)

[Opaz]

:)

I'm just interested in knowing who is getting voted for when it comes time for elections.

The poll will be private -- so nobody'll know who you voted for (I'm an admin and I can't even tell who voted in private polls >.<)

[InnerjetiK]

"im trying to tell you about fuckin my wife in the ass and your asking me all these person question":p

[Opaz]

:rolleyes:

[Lindsay]

ah geez... someone is seriously going to vote for hillary clinton?
/me cries

[Opaz]

ah geez... someone is seriously going to vote for hillary clinton?
/me cries
People actually voted for George W. Bush... did you cry when they voted for him, too?

[A.D]

People actually voted for George W. Bush... did you cry when they voted for him, too?Are you honestly expecting a "no" answer from theis question?

[Opaz]

Hahaha. I was so piiiiiiiisssssssed when George W. Bush was elected. AND I WAS EVEN MORE PISSED THAT HE WAS RE-ELECTED! WTF!

[Lindsay]

Hahaha. I was so piiiiiiiisssssssed when George W. Bush was elected. AND I WAS EVEN MORE PISSED THAT HE WAS RE-ELECTED! WTF!
at the time i was voting, i voted for the lesser of two evils. ;)

[Opaz]

I wonder if I'll have to go to Idaho to do my voting this year... since I'm not a Utah resident (that i know of since i've moved down here...) and i still have my idaho id and such.... hmmm....

[s0crat0kes]

ah geez... someone is seriously going to vote for hillary clinton?
/me cries

lol, thats what i said when i saw that. rep for u...err i must spread rep first.

[T.Beck]

C'mon people, of anything, Ravers should be voting for Ron Paul, he is the canidate that opposes violating personal liberties, he opposed the war from the begining and opposed the patriot act. He is the pro liberty canidate, which is what Ravers should be supporting. Other canidates sponsor anti rave legislation ect.

[Lindsay]

C'mon people, of anything, Ravers should be voting for Ron Paul, he is the canidate that opposes violating personal liberties, he opposed the war from the begining and opposed the patriot act. He is the pro liberty canidate, which is what Ravers should be supporting. Other canidates sponsor anti rave legislation ect.
lol... i'm not much of a raver anymore

[maliceinplunderland]

don't you guys know that if you tell someone your vote, then it won't come true..?


ps.. someone tell me who to vote for.. i'm uninformed.

[Niimo]

C'mon people, of anything, Ravers should be voting for Ron Paul, he is the canidate that opposes violating personal liberties, he opposed the war from the begining and opposed the patriot act. He is the pro liberty canidate, which is what Ravers should be supporting. Other canidates sponsor anti rave legislation ect.
Yeah.. I don't like personal liberties being violated...

[Ermac]

C'mon people, of anything, Ravers should be voting for Ron Paul, he is the canidate that opposes violating personal liberties, he opposed the war from the begining and opposed the patriot act. He is the pro liberty canidate, which is what Ravers should be supporting. Other canidates sponsor anti rave legislation ect.
RON PAUL!!!:bong:

[maliceinplunderland]

*jumps on the bandwagon*

[Amber]

I am not going to vote for anyone from a third party. I think that in effect is voting for the Republican party. I've voting for whoever is nominated by the Democratic party. Think of 2000 when 4% of the popular vote went to Nadar and what would have happened if that additional 4% would have gone tword Gore. (Yes I am aware of electorial college votes)

I know that Gore isn't the best nominee but he would have been better than Bush. That election I voted for Harry Browne. I felt like I threw away my vote afterword.

[Killy]

I think it is sad that anyone would vote for Romney, Guliani, or Thompson. As much as I don't agree with Ron Paul at least his supporters know where he really stands. Don't just read up on what they are currently saying read up on what they have said in the past. Read up on what they have done in the past. For example Guliani is no hero of 9/11. His policies and actions led to the deaths and severe to terminal illnesses of many of the actual heroes of 9/11.

[Amber]

Ron Paul is a Republican? I think that anyone with that many liberal views that is backed by the Republican party is pullin wool over eyes.



I think it is sad that anyone would vote for Romney, Guliani, or Thompson. As much as I don't agree with Ron Paul at least his supporters know where he really stands. Don't just read up on what they are currently saying read up on what they have said in the past. Read up on what they have done in the past. For example Guliani is no hero of 9/11. His policies and actions led to the deaths and severe to terminal illnesses of many of the actual heroes of 9/11.

[Killy]

Ron Paul is a Republican? I think that anyone with that many liberal views that is backed by the Republican party is pullin wool over eyes.
He is actually more Republican than any of the other Republican candidates.

[T.Beck]

I am not going to vote for anyone from a third party. I think that in effect is voting for the Republican party. I've voting for whoever is nominated by the Democratic party. Think of 2000 when 4% of the popular vote went to Nadar and what would have happened if that additional 4% would have gone tword Gore. (Yes I am aware of electorial college votes)

I know that Gore isn't the best nominee but he would have been better than Bush. That election I voted for Harry Browne. I felt like I threw away my vote afterword.


HELL YA, you voted for Harry Browne! awsome, me too! and I voted for Micheal Badnarick last time. Harry Browne was the first presidential canidate I ever voted for. You just won points in my book for even knowing who Harry Browne is. It's sad you have changed your ways though and don't realize that voting for the lesser of the evils is the true wasted vote. Had you voted for Gore, Bush won Utah more than any state anyways, your vote totally would have been wasted. But voting for Browne was a vote for Freedom, and even though he had no chance in hell, it was one more vote to show the world that you cared about your rights and about freedom.

This election is entirely different because this time like never before, we actually have a good choice within the 2 party system, RON PAUL, though Libertarian runs as republican, and I sincerely believe he has a chance to win. Him vs a Democrat would be the best thing ever, because both will be anti war so they can actually focus on issues at home. Plus he is the real anti war canidate, Clinton and almost every other Dem. voted for the authorization to invade Iraq, not PAUL.

[Lady Syn]

i dont think im gonna vote....

[T.Beck]

He is actually more Republican than any of the other Republican candidates.

Agreed, the Republican party has been NEO CONNED, and ruined. For amber, Ron Pauls views are very liberal, "Classical Liberal" not modern liberal aka "progressive" or whatever they like to be called now.

And Killy, I am sorry and sad that you disagree with a FREEDOM! your still a cool nice and smart guy though. I entirely agree with you about RudyMcRomney, sadly these sheep that vote for these people are the majority of people, they don't bother to actually look at peoples past record and what they believe. All 3 of those goons want to just continue George Bush's foreign policy.

The Republicans have no chance of winning unless they nominate Ron Paul, I am hoping so, this is one of the most important elections in American History.

Right now my prediction is Guilliani Vs. Clinton, Clinton wins. Romney is doing well, and he is very charasmatic, attractive and smooth talkin, but the Hypocrit christian right that is such a base of the Republican party will not nominate someone they believe follows a cult religion of the devil.

[Niimo]

Who ya gunno vote for?!?

GHOSTBUSTERS!

[Killy]

I don't disagree with personal freedoms, but I do disagree with his economic views (debated to death) and his views on social programs. What I said earlier applies to democrats too. I'd love to see Kucinich get the Dem nod though.

[T.Beck]

Are you F ing kidding me? Kuccinich is a socialist nut job. Although him and Gravel are the true anti war dems. Of the Dems I say Gravel, inspite of him being an angry old man, he doesn't just say what he thinks people want to here and side step questions, he tells it like it is and speaks his mind, as does kuccinch but he is a nut.

By the way, I don't understand the leftists like you that advocate personal freedom but not economic freedom, the 2 go hand in hand. Just like the conservatives that pretend to advocate economic freedom but then want everyone to be a christian and hate gay people and want to force their way by the barrel of a gun around the world. both hypocrits.

The Libertarian standpoint is that of TRUE FREEDOM, both economic and social, which is what attracted me, its the best of both sides.

On Sundays debate Tancredo actually impressed me, he is pick #2 of Republicans.

Having watched every single debate of both dems and reps I think I may make a list of best to worst.

[Killy]

Because economic freedom doesn't equate progress for society as a whole. There are a lot of areas where the govenment needs to pull away from such as censorship, but at the same time there needs to be regulations in areas such as on Wall Street. Look at all the shit that is happening with hedge funds and subprime loans. The companies that are involved with these are there because there were areas they exploited that had little to no regulations. Now the stock market is on the precapice of a collapse because their greed knew no bounds. Absolute free markets, and on the other end of the spectrum Communism, can only work if everyone involved was ethical, and they did what needed to be done to progress rather than profit just for themselves. Good luck with your economic utopia though. It has all historical examples of utopias, and their subsequent failures running against it.

[T.Beck]

Because economic freedom doesn't equate progress for society as a whole.

there is your problem, there is no such thing as "society as a whole" we are each "individuals" and economic freedom brings about progress to help each indiviudual by creativity, innovation, and a motive for profit. It works, meanwhile statism and the collectivist mindset constantly fails, in education, in helping the poor, in providing retirement, it fails and wastes a lot of $ in the process and gets bueracrats that benefit from statist policy rich, and keeps politicians that brainwash their constituantes with the media propaganda machine in power, and keeps everyone dependant on government rather than self reliant.

I haven't read it yet but will, this might interest you:

http://freedomkeys.com/collectivism.htm

[Killy]

Hahahaha so instead of attempting to help people in society lets just not even try. That way we can't fail! Let's look at where Mr. Paul and Mr. Kucinich stand on issues and see who is more desirable. This is for everyone else as we all know where T.Beck stands.

Mr. Paul's stance. (http://vote-smart.org/npat.php?can_id=296)

Mr. Kucinich's stance. (http://vote-smart.org/npat.php?can_id=318)

You can check out all the other candidates too.

[T.Beck]

Hahahaha so instead of attempting to help people in society lets just not even try.

That is not at all what I say. People are perfectly capable of helping themselves. I support helping people help themselves, just not through force like the statist policy you advocate, which doesn't help people help themselves it helps people become slaves to poverty and get socialists re-elected and puts cash in fed reserve banker and bueracrat pockets.

Here is an example, I voluntarily give a donation every first sunday called a "fast offering" when hurricane Katrina hit, the government program FEMA miserbly failed, meanwhile the LDS church(with my fast offering money) was right there with relief and volunteer effort that helped thousands of victims.

I will read the Paul Kucinich comparisan later, I read half of Paul's and just as I assumed I 100% agree. And its Dr. Paul not Mr. Paul. (not that a title matters just pointing that out)

[M_Lee]

i voted for GWB.....
so fuck off...

[Opaz]

i voted for GWB.....
so fuck off...
No wonder so many people give you shit...

[Opaz]

i dont think im gonna vote....

You better fucking vote or I'll stab you!

If you're over 18, you should vote!

[Paperweight]

voting is for conformist's

[Opaz]

Your mom is conformist.

[Lindsay]

:eek: WOW i am so disappointed in 3 of you

we need to turn the people toward the right path that are voting for hillary...

[Killy]

OMG we need McCarthy! They are getting into our precious bodily fluids!

[Killy]

That is not at all what I say. People are perfectly capable of helping themselves. I support helping people help themselves, just not through force like the statist policy you advocate, which doesn't help people help themselves it helps people become slaves to poverty and get socialists re-elected and puts cash in fed reserve banker and bueracrat pockets.
Really? So people who have AIDS, and can't afford insurance should just figure out their own way to create AIDS treatment drugs at an affordable price? Because Ron Paul wants to cut funding for AIDS research. Let us all hope that drug companies in their compassionate wisdom will find it in their hearts to do it for them, because they have been so good at doing that before.


Here is an example, I voluntarily give a donation every first sunday called a "fast offering" when hurricane Katrina hit, the government program FEMA miserbly failed, meanwhile the LDS church(with my fast offering money) was right there with relief and volunteer effort that helped thousands of victims.
FEMA used to work quite well, but then George happened. That was proof of unethical leadership through cronyism not proof that government ran social programs are bad.

I take it you believe in social Darwinism by your remarks.

[Drew]

damned socialists.

i think we should get rid of public schools, medicare, medicaid, and social security. shit, even the fire department, emergency response, police force and military should be privately funded.

[T.Beck]

damned socialists.

i think we should get rid of public schools, medicare, medicaid, and social security. shit, even the fire department, emergency response, police force and military should be privately funded.

I agree with everything up untill you said shit, post shit=legitimate to fund with public dollars, however I have heard of decent arguments for privately funding police and emergency stuff but haven't read up enough to agree with it yet. Even libertarians all agree on the importance of a decent defense, but using it for that, defense, not going around the world on an empirical conquest to force western ideals on people with the barrel of a gun while killing and harming thousands in the process.

[Walka]

i voted for clinton

[T.Beck]

Really? So people who have AIDS, and can't afford insurance should just figure out their own way to create AIDS treatment drugs at an affordable price? Because Ron Paul wants to cut funding for AIDS research. Let us all hope that drug companies in their compassionate wisdom will find it in their hearts to do it for them, because they have been so good at doing that before.


FEMA used to work quite well, but then George happened. That was proof of unethical leadership through cronyism not proof that government ran social programs are bad.

I take it you believe in social Darwinism by your remarks.

Someone with Aids in most cases made a decision that got them aids, and thus have to deal with the consequences of their bad decisions. companies have a natural reason to want to research it because if they find treatments that work it will make big $ for them. thats the great thing about the profit motive.

And yes for the most part I do believe in social Darwinism, at least in the U.S. not worldwide. The more poor people I talk to everyday at work, which is a lot, the more I believe in social darwinism in the U.S. We have so much opportunity here, people choose to be where they are, and that is where they should be. Being born to a starved family in a 3rd world country is another story.

[Amber]

Someone with Aids in most cases made a decision that got them aids, and thus have to deal with the consequences of their bad decisions. companies have a natural reason to want to research it because if they find treatments that work it will make big $ for them. thats the great thing about the profit motive.

And yes for the most part I do believe in social Darwinism, at least in the U.S. not worldwide. The more poor people I talk to everyday at work, which is a lot, the more I believe in social darwinism in the U.S. We have so much opportunity here, people choose to be where they are, and that is where they should be. Being born to a starved family in a 3rd world country is another story.


Spoken like a true white privilaged male. I bet you're religious too.

[Bhairava]

my prediction for the 2008 election!:

Hilary Clinton will beat out Obama in the primarys gaining the democratic ticket at which time her and Obama will set aside there differences and join forces on the same Democratic ticket!

Rudy Giuliani will score the republican ticket! as for his running mate im not sure.(god I hope its not Romney as his running mate!)

it will be a close race but in the end Hilary Clinton and Obama will be our President and Vice President in 08 or later. if the election is suspeneded due to war or other, Bush will remain in office for an unspecified amount of time!


my prediction may not be 100% accurate or even partially accurate but this is my prediction!


Peace

[Killy]

Someone with Aids in most cases made a decision that got them aids, and thus have to deal with the consequences of their bad decisions. companies have a natural reason to want to research it because if they find treatments that work it will make big $ for them. thats the great thing about the profit motive.

And yes for the most part I do believe in social Darwinism, at least in the U.S. not worldwide. The more poor people I talk to everyday at work, which is a lot, the more I believe in social darwinism in the U.S. We have so much opportunity here, people choose to be where they are, and that is where they should be. Being born to a starved family in a 3rd world country is another story.
'nuff said.

[Bhairava]

Someone with Aids in most cases made a decision that got them aids, and thus have to deal with the consequences of their bad decisions. companies have a natural reason to want to research it because if they find treatments that work it will make big $ for them. thats the great thing about the profit motive.

And yes for the most part I do believe in social Darwinism, at least in the U.S. not worldwide. The more poor people I talk to everyday at work, which is a lot, the more I believe in social darwinism in the U.S. We have so much opportunity here, people choose to be where they are, and that is where they should be. Being born to a starved family in a 3rd world country is another story.

wow that is the most ignorant statement i have ever read! your Mormon is totally showing!

[T.Beck]

Spoken like a true white privilaged male. I bet you're religious too.

More like spoken TRUTH! To give you some background on myself, yes I am white, but that makes no difference. From the moment I turned 18 I have been 100% financially independent, I moved out of my house the week I graduated high school and turned 18, I paid for my college education, my housing, transportation all 100% myself. As an advocate of personal responsibility and individual liberty I live what I value.

You voted for Harry Browne, you must have once realized the truth as well but have somehow lost your ways of LIBERTY!

I daily talk to "underprivilidged minorites" and I lived and worked in the hood in New Jersey where I was the only white person I'd see all day. Like I continually say. Poor people choose to be poor, its a choice. I saw latin americans that wored their tails off to move to the U.S. got here, spoke no english and are now very successfull bussiness owners and entrepenuers. They chose not to be poor.

Everyone needs to take 100% responbsibility for their lives and not make excuses of, race, class, upbringing, because those are nothing but excuses.

[T.Beck]

wow that is the most ignorant statement i have ever read! your Mormon is totally showing!

Truth is not ignorance. People need to take responisbility for their actions. By the way I have the exact same prediction for the presidential race. I hope its not the case but I think it will be. Unless Reupublicans pull their heads out of their warmongering asses and nominate Paul, they stand no chance.

[Lindsay]

More like spoken TRUTH! To give you some background on myself, yes I am white, but that makes no difference. From the moment I turned 18 I have been 100% financially independent, I moved out of my house the week I graduated high school and turned 18, I paid for my college education, my housing, transportation all 100% myself. As an advocate of personal responsibility and individual liberty I live what I value.

You voted for Harry Browne, you must have once realized the truth as well but have somehow lost your ways of LIBERTY!

I daily talk to "underprivilidged minorites" and I lived and worked in the hood in New Jersey where I was the only white person I'd see all day. Like I continually say. Poor people choose to be poor, its a choice. I saw latin americans that wored their tails off to move to the U.S. got here, spoke no english and are now very successfull bussiness owners and entrepenuers. They chose not to be poor.

Everyone needs to take 100% responbsibility for their lives and not make excuses of, race, class, upbringing, because those are nothing but excuses.
That is not true, they do not "choose" to be poor. If they are brought up in poverty, and have not received the best education, there isn't really anything they can do about that. that is the environment they grew up in. In most cases, that poverty is all they will ever know. It is not a person's fault that they are poor/uneducated. That was how they are brought up, and it is hard to do more than flip burgers w/out an education.
There are the few people that pay their way through college, and it can be extremely tough. But that is a very small percentage compared to the people that continue to live in poverty.
The government needs to help the impoverished population. It is not fair to them to not have the education that they deserive. The government does help out a bit already, but they don't help everyone.

[T.Beck]

That is not true, they do not "choose" to be poor. If they are brought up in poverty, and have not received the best education, there isn't really anything they can do about that. that is the environment they grew up in. In most cases, that poverty is all they will ever know. It is not a person's fault that they are poor/uneducated. That was how they are brought up, and it is hard to do more than flip burgers w/out an education.
There are the few people that pay their way through college, and it can be extremely tough. But that is a very small percentage compared to the people that continue to live in poverty.
The government needs to help the impoverished population. It is not fair to them to not have the education that they deserive. The government does help out a bit already, but they don't help everyone.


You have bought into the socialist statist collectivist mythology. Please read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. My friend Derrick thought the exact same thing untill he read that book. Its like 1,000 pages but it changes people lives. Or read any book from the Austrian School of economics, F.A. Hayek, Ludwig Von Mises, Milton Friedman, they explain this myth(I still need to read most their books, but I know the general economic theory). if you aren't a big reader, talk to me in person, I will explain. The government helps no one, in fact the systems set up to help the poor hurt the poor and keep them poor.

If your argument were true, then how do millions of people throughout U.S. history immigrate here and become successfull wealthy people? People that were brought up far more poor in other countries than any poor here. Don't by into socialist lies.

[maliceinplunderland]

way to turn a political conversation into a "i'm better than you because i read blah blah blah blah blah"

[T.Beck]

NO NO NO, that was not my intention, and I am ashamed to admit I don't read very much. I read a lot of news and online essays/blogs but not near enough books. I have so many I want to read too, I just don't make the time to, which is an excuse. I was just recomending some reading material to her of people that are much smarter than me to help explain my political ideology, which is that of Individualism, or objectivism, or libertarianism, whatever you want to call it, but most importantly its the ideology of FREEDOM.

Socialist ideology is really easy for people to buy into because on the surface it seems like a good thing, but then when you really understand it you realize it helps very few and hurts a lot, and takes away essential liberties in the process. Meanwhile the message of freedom at first glance appears to be mean, selfish, and uncarring, but then when you study it it really makes the most logical sense.

[Lindsay]

Tell all that to my mom who is a first grade teacher at the lowest elementary school in the valley, if not the state. This is something she is passionate about. She knows what she is talking about.

edit: I had a whole big paragraph typed, but it wasn't going anywhere so i gave up on it.

[Bhairava]

NO NO NO, that was not my intention, and I am ashamed to admit I don't read very much. I read a lot of news and online essays/blogs but not near enough books. I have so many I want to read too, I just don't make the time to, which is an excuse. I was just recomending some reading material to her of people that are much smarter than me to help explain my political ideology, which is that of Individualism, or objectivism, or libertarianism, whatever you want to call it, but most importantly its the ideology of FREEDOM.

Socialist ideology is really easy for people to buy into because on the surface it seems like a good thing, but then when you really understand it you realize it helps very few and hurts a lot, and takes away essential liberties in the process. Meanwhile the message of freedom at first glance appears to be mean, selfish, and uncarring, but then when you study it it really makes the most logical sense.

first of all your ideology sucks!! its Ideology like yours that left the Hurricane Katrina Victims stranded and left to die for an unexcusable amount of time!! what kinda country do we live in! when we allow our government to turn its back on its own people in times of DESPERATE need! and in case you didnt notice most if not all of them were black and not financially well off!!! had it been white middle to upper class citizens I guarantee you things would of gone alot differently!! I spent part of my schools years on the Turtle Mountain Chippewa Reservation in North Dakota I myself am not Native American, but I can tell you that people do not choose to be poor and that somethings like a lack of a good education mixed with ethnicity other then white can lead to poverty and disscrimination!! the school System there was soooo far behind! grades behind other predominantly white schools in the state. I have a cousin who is the same age as me and went to a school a few hours away from where I did, in a predominantly white school and there Education was so much farther ahead!! I was grades behind her yet we were in the same grade! and at the School I went to they were more concerned with disciplin then what you were taught! the teachers where mostly white and didnt really give a shit about the students or what they taught. I saw more movies in that school(non educational) then I did at home! sooo glad im not there anymore!! it was horrible!!! anyway I just wanted you to see that what your saying is complete Ignorance and not truth!! People do not choose to be poor, they do not choose ethnicity they do not choose to be discriminated against and this may come as a shock to you but most people with Aids did not choose to have it! just like gay people dont choose to be gay they are born that way! and society sucks and discrimination happens! and society does force the less fortunate down not so fabulous paths! please explain your ideology to the poor young girl or guy(no specific ethnicity) that had to drop out of school and get a job to take care of there brothers and sisters so the family wouldnt starve! cause there parents couldnt work for whatever reason maybe mom or dad or both are handicap maybe mom is a drug addict or dad is in prison!! or tell it to the small business owner that suddenly had to close and declare bankruptcy and maybe he lost his home in the process and now has to work some shitty low paying job to keep food on his familys table all because Walmart moved to town! this shit happens everyday all across the country I guarantee you there a million other things they would rather do but CANT! or you could explain it to all the Vietnam vets that came home to nothing most of which ended up homeless cause our Government wouldnt take care of them! So with that being said, A Government should totally take care of its people ALL PEOPLE! wether they are white, black, hispanic, gay, whatever!! as wealthy as our country is and how much we seem to "need" to spend on wars! and "national security" nobody in this country should be starveing or homeless!! but sadly there are thousands possibly millions at or below the poverty level! im sorry but I would vote for a socialist democrat any day! and I will be in 2008!!! also no matter how you look at it the way this country is moveing soon no one will have civil libertys! our freedom as we once knew it will be gone, but I would rather be without my civil libertys knowing that if I hit really hard times that my Government would totally help me out and have programs set up so i didnt starve and would have a place to live!!! and why shouldnt they! I pay taxes to fund there stupid wars, the least they can do is help me out if I am unable to help myself! anyway thats my 2 bucks worth a little big for :2cents: lol and there are spelling errors and typos but i dont care! get over it!

[Hyver]

first of all your ideology sucks!! its Ideology like yours that left the Hurricane Katrina Victims stranded and left to die for an unexcusable amount of time!! what kinda country do we live in! when we allow our government to turn its back on its own people in times of DESPERATE need! and in case you didnt notice most if not all of them were black and not financially well off!!! had it been white middle to upper class citizens I guarantee you things would of gone alot differently!! I spent part of my schools years on the Turtle Mountain Chippewa Reservation in North Dakota I myself am not Native American, but I can tell you that people do not choose to be poor and that somethings like a lack of a good education mixed with ethnicity other then white can lead to poverty and disscrimination!! the school System there was soooo far behind! grades behind other predominantly white schools in the state. I have a cousin who is the same age as me and went to a school a few hours away from where I did, in a predominantly white school and there Education was so much farther ahead!! I was grades behind her yet we were in the same grade! and at the School I went to they were more concerned with disciplin then what you were taught! the teachers where mostly white and didnt really give a shit about the students or what they taught. I saw more movies in that school(non educational) then I did at home! sooo glad im not there anymore!! it was horrible!!! anyway I just wanted you to see that what your saying is complete Ignorance and not truth!! People do not choose to be poor, they do not choose ethnicity they do not choose to be discriminated against and this may come as a shock to you but most people with Aids did not choose to have it! just like gay people dont choose to be gay they are born that way! and society sucks and discrimination happens! and society does force the less fortunate down not so fabulous paths! please explain your ideology to the poor young girl or guy(no specific ethnicity) that had to drop out of school and get a job to take care of there brothers and sisters so the family wouldnt starve! cause there parents couldnt work for whatever reason maybe mom or dad or both are handicap maybe mom is a drug addict or dad is in prison!! or tell it to the small business owner that suddenly had to close and declare bankruptcy and maybe he lost his home in the process and now has to work some shitty low paying job to keep food on his familys table all because Walmart moved to town! this shit happens everyday all across the country I guarantee you there a million other things they would rather do but CANT! or you could explain it to all the Vietnam vets that came home to nothing most of which ended up homeless cause our Government wouldnt take care of them! So with that being said, A Government should totally take care of its people ALL PEOPLE! wether they are white, black, hispanic, gay, whatever!! as wealthy as our country is and how much we seem to "need" to spend on wars! and "national security" nobody in this country should be starveing or homeless!! but sadly there are thousands possibly millions at or below the poverty level! im sorry but I would vote for a socialist democrat any day! and I will be in 2008!!! also no matter how you look at it the way this country is moveing soon no one will have civil libertys! our freedom as we once knew it will be gone, but I would rather be without my civil libertys knowing that if I hit really hard times that my Government would totally help me out and have programs set up so i didnt starve and would have a place to live!!! and why shouldnt they! I pay taxes to fund there stupid wars, the least they can do is help me out if I am unable to help myself! anyway thats my 2 bucks worth a little big for :2cents: lol and there are spelling errors and typos but i dont care! get over it!


I would have read this, but large seemingly unending blocks of text make my eyes keep jumping back to the left side of the page and I don't get any reading done.

[T.Beck]

I will gladly tell the TRUTH to your mom. this is something I am passionate about, I am sick and tired of people willingly throwing their freedom away for a socialist utopia that keeps the poor poor and the rich rich! Thats great she is a 1st grade teacher at a poor school, and I will say, the children did not choose to be poor, but their parents did. It is sad for the children but I believe that it is all part of the trials of life that God has set out for them to go through to learn and become like him.

Now I am not going to go here, and I don't have an opinion yet on what I am going to say, but some that believe in a pre-mortal existence, which I do, believe that the CHOICES we made before this life partly determined
the circumstances we were born into in this life. Thus going back to CHOICE. Now whether I believe that entirely or not I am not sure, but just something to think about.


Tell all that to my mom who is a first grade teacher at the lowest elementary school in the valley, if not the state. This is something she is passionate about. She knows what she is talking about.

edit: I had a whole big paragraph typed, but it wasn't going anywhere so i gave up on it.

[T.Beck]

first of all your ideology sucks!! its Ideology like yours that left the Hurricane Katrina Victims stranded and left to die for an unexcusable amount of time!! what kinda country do we live in! when we allow our government to turn its back on its own people in times of DESPERATE need! and in case you didnt notice most if not all of them were black and not financially well off!!! had it been white middle to upper class citizens I guarantee you things would of gone alot differently!! I spent part of my schools years on the Turtle Mountain Chippewa Reservation in North Dakota I myself am not Native American, but I can tell you that people do not choose to be poor and that somethings like a lack of a good education mixed with ethnicity other then white can lead to poverty and disscrimination!! the school System there was soooo far behind! grades behind other predominantly white schools in the state. I have a cousin who is the same age as me and went to a school a few hours away from where I did, in a predominantly white school and there Education was so much farther ahead!! I was grades behind her yet we were in the same grade! and at the School I went to they were more concerned with disciplin then what you were taught! the teachers where mostly white and didnt really give a shit about the students or what they taught. I saw more movies in that school(non educational) then I did at home! sooo glad im not there anymore!! it was horrible!!! anyway I just wanted you to see that what your saying is complete Ignorance and not truth!! People do not choose to be poor, they do not choose ethnicity they do not choose to be discriminated against and this may come as a shock to you but most people with Aids did not choose to have it! just like gay people dont choose to be gay they are born that way! and society sucks and discrimination happens! and society does force the less fortunate down not so fabulous paths! please explain your ideology to the poor young girl or guy(no specific ethnicity) that had to drop out of school and get a job to take care of there brothers and sisters so the family wouldnt starve! cause there parents couldnt work for whatever reason maybe mom or dad or both are handicap maybe mom is a drug addict or dad is in prison!! or tell it to the small business owner that suddenly had to close and declare bankruptcy and maybe he lost his home in the process and now has to work some shitty low paying job to keep food on his familys table all because Walmart moved to town! this shit happens everyday all across the country I guarantee you there a million other things they would rather do but CANT! or you could explain it to all the Vietnam vets that came home to nothing most of which ended up homeless cause our Government wouldnt take care of them! So with that being said, A Government should totally take care of its people ALL PEOPLE! wether they are white, black, hispanic, gay, whatever!! as wealthy as our country is and how much we seem to "need" to spend on wars! and "national security" nobody in this country should be starveing or homeless!! but sadly there are thousands possibly millions at or below the poverty level! im sorry but I would vote for a socialist democrat any day! and I will be in 2008!!! also no matter how you look at it the way this country is moveing soon no one will have civil libertys! our freedom as we once knew it will be gone, but I would rather be without my civil libertys knowing that if I hit really hard times that my Government would totally help me out and have programs set up so i didnt starve and would have a place to live!!! and why shouldnt they! I pay taxes to fund there stupid wars, the least they can do is help me out if I am unable to help myself! anyway thats my 2 bucks worth a little big for :2cents: lol and there are spelling errors and typos but i dont care! get over it!

Wrong, ideology like YOURS left hurricane Katrina victims helpless, its funny cuz earlier in this thread I used this example to prove my point. It was put in the hands of GOVERNMENT to help these people and GOVERNMENT failed, meanwhile PRIVATE charity privailed, namely the LDS church relief efforts.

Your example about public education also proves my ideology of freedom, with public education there is no competition, this education is poor to mediocre, meanwhile in other countries where there is a free market competition in education unlike a governement monopoly like we have here, students perform much better. Our system now, where it is government run, leaves people on the reservation and in poorer areas with worse education, just based on where they live. Meanwhile with a freemarket system, they could choose where they go to school and get a better education.

If you want to see how a system you like ends up, go to North Korea! the government takes care of you, everyone is equal, there is no civil liberties. Ask the people there how great it is, actually they think it is great cuz they know no other way, because their gov. has cut them off from information about the rest of the world. They are probably in the top 10 poorest countries in the world, over 1/3 of the people are malnourished, over 200,000 in prison camps where they are fed a bowl of rice a day and do slave labor. People escape to CHINA for freedom one of the worst violators of human rights there is! Go live there and then tell me you don't like Capitalism.

You said you'll willingly give up your freedom to have security, in that case why not just commit a crime and go to Prison? You have food and shelter right?

The STATE FAILS FREE MARKET PREVAILS! Open your eyes and your mind

And I wholeheartedly agree we need not keep dumping billions of dollars into wars we have no set objective to win. Democracy cannot be spread by the barrel of a gun.

[Pink]

funny you mention prison camps..
(http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3321586)
where the fuck are the libertarians?

[maliceinplunderland]

it's all your fault!

[T.Beck]

funny you mention prison camps..
(\"http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3321586\")
where the fuck are the libertarians?

The libertarians including myself are fighting for a sensible and compassionate drug policy so that the prisons are not over crowded, thats where we are. I am reading this book about it right now http://www.amazon.com/Why-Drug-Laws-Have-Failed/dp/1566398606/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/104-7354760-5978343?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186679709&sr=8-3

another great reference is www.drugpolicyalliance.org (http://www.drugpolicyalliance.org) The reason the prisons are overcrowded is because of the insane war on drugs. Mandatory minimum sentencing laws put peacefull potheads behind bars meanwhile letting violent criminals out early, only to go back after repeat offenses. I don't know the exact numbers but the majority of the prison population are there on drug related charges. Ending this insane WAR and going to a policy of FREEDOM, will allow those that use to use safely and allow real criminals that commit violent crimes to stay in prison where they belong.

It costs $22,000 a year to keep a prisoner incarcerated, thats 22K that could go back in the pockets of taxpayers or be spent instead to treat those with drug problems.

The problem with the drug war is it ignores economics, it fights the supply side, which does no good at all, as long as there is a demand, which there always will be, there will be a supply. Rather than doing that we need to realize there is always a demand and work instead to educate and reduce the risks involved with drug use and treat addicts.

And that my friends is the libertarian stance on the overcrowded prisons(although many libertarians would disagree with publicly funded treatment, I am still deciding my opinion on that)

[Pink]

It costs $22,000 a year to keep a prisoner incarcerated, thats 22K that could go back in the pockets of taxpayers or be spent instead to treat those with drug problems.

what?... you're saying over 2 million citizens get 22k a year of housing and food and all they have to do is break the law and do drugs?!?!.. what kind of twisted socialist backwards ass democracy is this?!?

- ; )

[maliceinplunderland]

can i borrow a gun pink? i need to go rob a bank..

[T.Beck]

I know it is twisted and backwards huh? this is funny cuz on Tue. me and our good rave board friend Lara(Adrena_Line) were talkin about this cuz her roommate's friend set fire to a bunch of buildings so he could go to prison and get away from all the debt he had. lame system eh?

[PapaChops]

Tbeck, you're reminding me of someone, and this is not a good thing. But the similarities between you two are astounding. You both have this idea that people are where they are because that was their decision, and no outside influences can ever effect that. Y'know, like earthquakes, murders, pregnancies, I could go on and on.

You see the world as black and white, refusing to believe that there's more than two colors in the world. It's like a twisted form of idealism, one that's dead set in it's ways and while it seems to be open minded on the outside, underneath it is really refusing to accept that they may be wrong.

A large majority of the people with AIDS actually didn't do anything to be infected except being born, but apparently it was their choice right? Most of the people who are impoverished or poor choose that path, even though they're born into a 3rd world country. But it was their choice, right?

Good people don't always win, bad people don't always lose. Good people die alone, bad people die wealthy and happy. Yes, the reverse happens as well, but they're both just as likely. There's nothing fair about who wins and who loses, who lives and who dies. I hope you realize the error in your ways before you end up like the man you remind me of.:2cents:

[Bhairava]

Wrong, ideology like YOURS left hurricane Katrina victims helpless, its funny cuz earlier in this thread I used this example to prove my point. It was put in the hands of GOVERNMENT to help these people and GOVERNMENT failed, meanwhile PRIVATE charity privailed, namely the LDS church relief efforts.

Your example about public education also proves my ideology of freedom, with public education there is no competition, this education is poor to mediocre, meanwhile in other countries where there is a free market competition in education unlike a governement monopoly like we have here, students perform much better. Our system now, where it is government run, leaves people on the reservation and in poorer areas with worse education, just based on where they live. Meanwhile with a freemarket system, they could choose where they go to school and get a better education.

If you want to see how a system you like ends up, go to North Korea! the government takes care of you, everyone is equal, there is no civil liberties. Ask the people there how great it is, actually they think it is great cuz they know no other way, because their gov. has cut them off from information about the rest of the world. They are probably in the top 10 poorest countries in the world, over 1/3 of the people are malnourished, over 200,000 in prison camps where they are fed a bowl of rice a day and do slave labor. People escape to CHINA for freedom one of the worst violators of human rights there is! Go live there and then tell me you don't like Capitalism.

You said you'll willingly give up your freedom to have security, in that case why not just commit a crime and go to Prison? You have food and shelter right?

The STATE FAILS FREE MARKET PREVAILS! Open your eyes and your mind

And I wholeheartedly agree we need not keep dumping billions of dollars into wars we have no set objective to win. Democracy cannot be spread by the barrel of a gun.


first of all my eyes are wide open!!! wider then yours im afraid! you obviously live in a nice little box set up for you by the mormon church! every mormon i have ever talked to on this or similar subjects say the exact same thing!!! all your views and Ideology are ignornance cause your a follower! Im sooooo glad the mormons will never have any real power in this country or the world!!! if they ruled, the mormons would have all the Wealth and power and all the non believers would be liveing shitty little lives working for the mormons!! that in itself is disgusting!!! thats practically quoted from mormon docterine! maybe not word for word but read up on there view of "paradise" Mormonism is a PIG religion! and im not sorry if I offended you with that statement! you and the rest of your Mormon friends dont care about the earth, or the environment or anyone else that might be suffering cause you think Jesus is just gonna come down and fix it all for those that except the Gospel! which in turn makes you people believe that the poor deserve to be poor! people with AIDS deserve to have AIDS and people of non white races deserve discrimination and racism cause the darkness of there skin is a curse from God!! and when god comes they'll be white and "pure" thus ending there suffering! am I right? dont lie anyone that has done there research on the mormon church knows this! as far as socialism is concerned real marxist socialism is not the same as communism NOT AT ALL!!! and the democrats that push a form of socialism in this country are not pushing communism!! they push big government which would offer more services and relief to its own people so the poor and less fortunate can have real chances!! unlike the republicans who claim to be careing for its people by lets see cutting health care cutting social security cutting other countless would be bennificial programs and lets see spending who knows how many millions of dollars on National security which is a total sham!! like the 2 mile long fence they built on the border between mexico! or bushes great tax cut that only helped those makeing more then 200,000!
And I never said I would willingly give up my freedom not at all!! but the fact is this country is moveing toward a state to where many people if not all its people will have practically NO CIVIL LIBERTYS! its inevitable! there will probably be another "terrorist attack" this year or next implementing a for sure police state! so if my civil liberties are going to be gone no matter what,and if im gonna have to deal with there shit then I want my Government to provide for me if for some reason I cant !!! get what im saying!? anyway im done your just another mormon preaching your close minded beliefs as truth!

[PapaChops]

And in an effort to bring the thread back on track. If I did vote for anyone it would be Obama. He seems the most genuine and optimistic candidate, but that's because he hasn't been in politics long enough for it to suck his soul dry. I think this country needs an idealist in charge, might help turn things around, even if it's only for a little while.

[T.Beck]

As far as this thread goes.

Killy though I disagree with is actually well read and knows what he is talking about and why. Papachops is kind and just mis inturpreted what I said. Bhairava on the otherhand has no clue what he is talking about and just hates mormons for some reason.

To set the record straight Bhairava, very very very few mormons share my political beliefs, how many mormons do you know that advocate drug legalization? C'mon now! Most mormons are rather authoritarian and want to make the goverment force their morals on everyone, which I entirely disagree with and which is why Utah has such dumb laws. Most mormons are taught to not questions and to be submissive to their leaders, and they take the same view with politics. Unfortunately, most mormons support GW. Bush and the War in Iraq, I from the began opposed it and have fought to spread the anti war message to mormons. Most mormons are big government forced morals neoconned idiots.

Most Libertarians on the otherhand are Athiest, over 60% of libertarians don't believe in God? This is because libertarians typically are people that use reason and logic to come to conclusions and since God's existance cannot be proven they don't believe.

I find it odd that you somehow think that most mormons shared my beliefs in FREEDOM, I wish they did, unfortunately they have been blinded and misunderstand. The war for example, Christ preached the gospel of peace yet most mormons support war, it Abhores me and makes no sense and I don't understand.

Anyway, Bhaivara I don't know why you Hate mormons, but my religion has very little to do if anything, with my political and economic and philisophical positions.

[Lindsay]

I will gladly tell the TRUTH to your mom. this is something I am passionate about, I am sick and tired of people willingly throwing their freedom away for a socialist utopia that keeps the poor poor and the rich rich! Thats great she is a 1st grade teacher at a poor school, and I will say, the children did not choose to be poor, but their parents did. It is sad for the children but I believe that it is all part of the trials of life that God has set out for them to go through to learn and become like him.

Now I am not going to go here, and I don't have an opinion yet on what I am going to say, but some that believe in a pre-mortal existence, which I do, believe that the CHOICES we made before this life partly determined
the circumstances we were born into in this life. Thus going back to CHOICE. Now whether I believe that entirely or not I am not sure, but just something to think about.

Ok, yeah it was the kid's parents' fault that they moved here from mexico to give their kids a decent education and life.
Unfortunately, none of the parents seem to think they need to learn english and teach it to their kids. That is a problem.
Their parents up and moved the family to the US. And we all know that Mexico is such a rich country.
It is not a Hispanic's fault that they are poor. THE WHOLE FUCKING COUNTRY IS POOR. And for a family to move here can be really expensive for them, especially if they become legal citizens.
And yes, it was their CHOICE to move here, in hope that their kids will have a better life than they did. If you ask me, that's a pretty good choice, and if they have to be poor because of it, so be it. It is not their fault. Their children are getting the education they need. I would sacrifice absolutely anything for my daughter's well-being. And if that means I have to move to another country, and eat ramen the rest of my life so she can eat the best food, and get the best education, thus better life, I would do it in a fucking heartbeat.
I really don't think that you realize that being born into poverty/different race, makes a huge difference to how that individual turns out. Poverty, that lifestyle, that environment makes a person who they are. And if they have no way to leave that environment, then that is how they will grow up to be. If they are brave enough to step out of their comfort zone, and away from everything/everyone they know and love, and don't fall back to it, that is a HUGE success.

Anyway, people don't choose. An individual's environment is what makes or breaks them. (But that is not always the case)

[Bhairava]

As far as this thread goes.

Killy though I disagree with is actually well read and knows what he is talking about and why. Papachops is kind and just mis inturpreted what I said. Bhairava on the otherhand has no clue what he is talking about and just hates mormons for some reason.

To set the record straight Bhairava, very very very few mormons share my political beliefs, how many mormons do you know that advocate drug legalization? C'mon now! Most mormons are rather authoritarian and want to make the goverment force their morals on everyone, which I entirely disagree with and which is why Utah has such dumb laws. Most mormons are taught to not questions and to be submissive to their leaders, and they take the same view with politics. Unfortunately, most mormons support GW. Bush and the War in Iraq, I from the began opposed it and have fought to spread the anti war message to mormons. Most mormons are big government forced morals neoconned idiots.

Most Libertarians on the otherhand are Athiest, over 60% of libertarians don't believe in God? This is because libertarians typically are people that use reason and logic to come to conclusions and since God's existance cannot be proven they don't believe.

I find it odd that you somehow think that most mormons shared my beliefs in FREEDOM, I wish they did, unfortunately they have been blinded and misunderstand. The war for example, Christ preached the gospel of peace yet most mormons support war, it Abhores me and makes no sense and I don't understand.

Anyway, Bhaivara I don't know why you Hate mormons, but my religion has very little to do if anything, with my political and economic and philisophical positions.

yet your a proud Mormon?? and you dont agree with most of what they are!? how does that make sense? and yes I do know what im talking about and no i dont hate mormons! I just feel sorry for them and they frustrate me. Especially when they say things like the poor chose to be poor and people with aids deserve to have it, just like you did earlier in this thread yet you avoided my questions and attacks on those statments just like everyother mormon does and tried to make me the idiot. what good is a government if it cant or wont take care of its less fortunate!?!? if you ask me the native americans and other tribal groups had the best forms of government. they relied on a very wise chief or group of elders to make tribal discisions if the tribe was wealthy and had food everyone shared in the wealth and had food, NO ONE STARVED NO ONE WAS POOR!!! there wasnt a group of people becoming extremely Wealthy off the blood, sweat and tears of the underclass cause there was no underclass! they worked together as a real community!! and let non fall behind. to bad those times are gone for everyone! anyway T.Beck someday I hope you get out into the real world. and see poor people are not poor cause they want to be. and people with aids did not choose to get aids and real discrimination against other races exsists!!! there for forceing some to live a life of poverty and filled with daily struggles!! not everyone was as lucky as you to be born white probably middle class with both a mother and a father. you shouldnt be so quick to dismiss anothers miss fortunes perhaps someday you'll be at the other end.

[T.Beck]

You guys don't get what I'm sayin here, I want to help poor people just as much as you do. Christ taught to feed the hungry and cloth the poor, I am a good christian. I just believe in a better more effective way of doing it that doesn't involve force.

I lived and worked in the Hood of new Jersey for 4 months, I saw american poverty at its worse, I lived in Korea for 2 years, seeing the difference in N. and South Korea is proof positive that capitalism prevails, socialism fails. All socialism is is a watered down version of communism. I talk to poor people living in poverty everyday at my work and hear their stories. I have studied economics and political sciences. All of these has given me reason to believe the way I KNOW TO BE TRUE.

Bhaivara, if Tribal gov. is the best, then why was it that for thousands of years there was no progress? As soon as Adam Smith Wrote Wealth of Nations and England moved from mercintilism to capitalism is when all progress was made. We now have FAR FAR less poverty and suffering than every before because of the advances in technology specifically medicine, these advances were made as a direct result of capitalism.

You can go live on your tribe but I personally prefer having lights, computers, cell phones, speakers, records, dance music, clubs, hospitals, and every other great thing capitalism has brought to the world.

There wasn't much of a difference in lifestyle and standard of living from Christs time to Adam Smiths time, which was 1,700+ years, but from Adam Smiths till now just over 200, technology and standard of living and lifestyle has skyrocketed. Why? the capitalist message of freedom he brought. Yet our schools don't teach adam smith instead we read Karl Marx, it makes no sense.

[Ebbertron]

As a sociologist, and headed to law school in 8 months (thats right suckas!!) it would be wrong for me to not say something here.

First of all, good ol' Uncle Karl Marx's so-called "socialism" is NOT anything any country has EVER been able to implement, PERIOD.

Secondly, William Julius Wilson, a man I respect beyond measure, makes some very interesting points relating to racism and poverty among minorities. Its really easy for us to point the finger and blame whitey. In all honesty, many of the problems minorities face do stem from things like slavery, immegration reforms and public policy. However, there is overwhelming evidence to support the fact that "taking care" of these people simply does not work. There has to be a change in their value system.

The Katrina disaster was proof that our government has gotten way too big, and a bullshit bureaucracy is really to blame. (FEMA) for example. Government is all ready overgrown, moving toward socialism will only make it larger.

so much more to say, but its 3am.

[Pink]

Bhairava on the otherhand has no clue what he is talking about and just hates mormons for some reason.

how did you read that run on sentence is what i want to know?

[Ebbertron]

early mormons never practiced "socialism". they practiced "the united order" which is run under theocracy. In Marxist thought (true Marxist thought) God has no place in Government.

I dont remember when exactly it was, but there was a town called "orderville" in Utah. They succeeded in operating under the United Order for quite some time, well into the 20th century. it all went to pot when one of the youth of the town showed up with a brand new pair of Levis', creating a distinction between its people, and planting the seed of envy.

[T.Beck]

Everything God ordains as good and true, Satan has a counterfiet for. Communism is Satans Counterfit to The Law of Consecration, which people still had their own private property. There is a great talk by former Prophet Ezra Taft Benson. Ezra Taft Benson hits the nail on the head when it comes to what government should and shouldn't do. Read this, its one of the best short documents on the matter:
http://www.zionsbest.com/proper_role.html

This is the LDS leader I relate to politically and agree with. Or watch his youtube clip of a speech he gave http://www.latterdayconservative.com/ now that site has what LDS people can and should believe.

And as for Christs teachings he taught to "Voluntarily give all you have to the poor and follow him" he taught private charity by choice, he did not teach statism, and he opposed the Roman government so....I have not had a chance to read this yet but it looks like a very interesting read about Jesus is an Anarcho Capitalist, http://praxeology.net/anarchist-jesus.pdf

[Bhairava]

You guys don't get what I'm sayin here, I want to help poor people just as much as you do. Christ taught to feed the hungry and cloth the poor, I am a good christian. I just believe in a better more effective way of doing it that doesn't involve force.

I lived and worked in the Hood of new Jersey for 4 months, I saw american poverty at its worse, I lived in Korea for 2 years, seeing the difference in N. and South Korea is proof positive that capitalism prevails, socialism fails. All socialism is is a watered down version of communism. I talk to poor people living in poverty everyday at my work and hear their stories. I have studied economics and political sciences. All of these has given me reason to believe the way I KNOW TO BE TRUE.

Bhaivara, if Tribal gov. is the best, then why was it that for thousands of years there was no progress? As soon as Adam Smith Wrote Wealth of Nations and England moved from mercintilism to capitalism is when all progress was made. We now have FAR FAR less poverty and suffering than every before because of the advances in technology specifically medicine, these advances were made as a direct result of capitalism.

You can go live on your tribe but I personally prefer having lights, computers, cell phones, speakers, records, dance music, clubs, hospitals, and every other great thing capitalism has brought to the world.

There wasn't much of a difference in lifestyle and standard of living from Christs time to Adam Smiths time, which was 1,700+ years, but from Adam Smiths till now just over 200, technology and standard of living and lifestyle has skyrocketed. Why? the capitalist message of freedom he brought. Yet our schools don't teach adam smith instead we read Karl Marx, it makes no sense.

1000 of years and no progress? blinded by materialist capitalism you are! Capitalism is not freedom not at all!!! first of all capitalism has built industrial corporations and industry is RAPEING this planet of all its resources!! when a society no longer cares for the earth which clearly society as a whole does not!! they are filled with greed and material shit!!!! sure its nice to have all you mentioned but at what cost!? our planets falling apart do to over population and big industry! and who do you think made the 7 suvs and cars the Wealthy Rap artists owns?? someone who has no option but to work a shitty underpaid industrial job! Capitalism works for the Rich and the Corporations the rest are consumers and at or below the poverty level working there asses so someone else can get rich! never in the history of this country has there been more of a seperation between the rich and the poor!! all thanks to good old capitalism!! this also brings in free trade which is at the expense of the poor in other countrys namely mexico where they make 10 times less a day then an average americna makes in an hour! also free trade sends jobs to other countrys and leaves the unemployment figures very high here in the U.S.!! because the corporations are greedy and want to make 200 plus percent markup on there products! that shirt your wearing probably cost 5 cents to make and you probably paid $30 or more!Capitalism out of all Governments and societys is the most greedy and uncompasionate of them all!! greed = selfishness! which in turn leaves the poor under such a government POOR! Capitalism does not = a free society cause someone is going to have to be at the bottom manufacturing your cell phone! Tribal cultures only took what they needed they werent greedy they respected the planet! again please tell me I have no Idea what im talking about! lol but its ok I understand where your coming from Mormons dont care about the planet or its resources,the poor, and ethnic races just like the Jews deserved to be discriminated against and are where they are supposed to be. money, greed and materialism is so much more important! oh and familys! lol oh and lets not forget jesus!

[T.Beck]

Blinded by socialist Green propaganda YOU ARE!

have you ever studied economics at all? you don't get it, capitilsm is better for EVERYONE, including those at the bottom. You buy into all the Green Party Bullshit

You;d probably like David Cobb, he was the presidential canidate for the Green party last election, look him up, way smart guy. Everything is a corporations fault, corporations are SOO evil. Few get rich and many stay poor.

These are MYTHS that socialist propagandists want you to believe. Unfortunately most educators have bought into a lot of it as well and people like you are coming out of it.

News flash, the chiese sweatshop laborer that made my $10 shirt(not $30) makes 3 times more than he made before the factory came, he has a way better standard of living and better life thanks to economic Globalization. At the same time, the poor redneck family in Mississippi can now afford to buy the shirt the chinese worker made because Wal Mart is able to sell it for cheaper and still make a profit. Everyone benefits with Free trade and economic globalization, Walmart yes gets richer, the Chinese person gets a way better job than being a starving peasant, and poor folks here can now afford clothes.

Go to The soviet union of the 80s and tell me a planned economy works. Ok you'll say thats communist, Go to France Now and talk to Muslims and see how they like the french socialist system that is mean to help the workers but has now brought forth a second rate poor muslim class that no one will hire.

Statism does not and will not ever work. Example, at my job I talk to a lot of people that are "on disability" the majority of them are perfectly fine and can work, however they get like $1,200 a month or so to not work and though that is poverty, they'd rather get that and not work than lose it and have to work. Government welfare keeps the poor poor and helps the buearacrats that are employed to run the socialist programs as well as the politicians that get the votes of the poor by convincing them the government owes them and they need to elect them to keep ther benefits.
Its truely sickening.

[Ebbertron]

too many exclamation points!!!!!!

try arguing rationally and not emotionally.

[T.Beck]

you aren't talkin to me right? I think I use reason and logic, and don't have !!! all over

[Ebbertron]

anyone who tries to explain away our many social and economical problems as being caused by a single factor or form of government should do some real research. These are complex issues which typically require more than one solution, and something as drastic as voting for this quasi-socialism is not going to be a cure all.

[Pink]

ahh ain't chaos grand!(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <- added for amusement)

[T.Beck]

anyone who tries to explain away our many social and economical problems as being caused by a single factor or form of government should do some real research. These are complex issues which typically require more than one solution, and something as drastic as voting for this quasi-socialism is not going to be a cure all.

Agreed, there are soo many factors.

[Lindsay]

And as for Christs teachings he taught to \"Voluntarily give all you have to the poor and follow him\" he taught private charity by choice, he did not teach statism, and he opposed the Roman government so....I have not had a chance to read this yet but it looks like a very interesting read about Jesus is an Anarcho Capitalist, http://praxeology.net/anarchist-jesus.pdf

Did he say that before or after they crucified him?

[T.Beck]

Before obviously, and his whole crucifiction and atonement was voluntary, he CHOSE to do that to save both his own soul as well as the world. His plan is that of FREE CHOICE, Lindsay you have been taught these things, Satans plan was the plan of FORCE.

[Bhairava]

Satans plan was the plan of FORCE.

Isn't that what the Mormons do??

[T.Beck]

Um no, Agency is a very important doctrine to mormons. Freedom to choose. Force is bad, like I said that was Satans plan. Christs plan is that of free choice.

[Bhairava]

Um no, Agency is a very important doctrine to mormons. Freedom to choose. Force is bad, like I said that was Satans plan. Christs plan is that of free choice.

Riiiight, then how come they force all who who attend byu to follow LDS standards includeing non mormons? and why does this state make laws against things not of LDS standards? and why are there stupid no danceing after 2 a.m. laws? and why do mormon people not allow there children to hang out with non LDS children? causeing some kids to join the mormons at a young age, so they can have friends?(more of a small town mormon thing) and why is provo run like Nazi Germany given they are slowley looseing there power there too. but still. and why do they make it sooooooo hard for people to obtain liqour licenses in the state. alls you have to do is look around to see there obvious attempt at controling society at large includeing non mormons! your obviously blinded by your "faith" and you dont see it! and why for the love of god is it so hard for someone to have there name removed from the records of the LDS church and yes they do make it damn hard!! I could hook you up with a website full of pissed off people(thousands)who just dont want to be associated with the LDS church includeing that of them being listed as a member!? and the LDS church makes it ridiculously hard to do so all they really have to do is delete the persons name and send them a letter saying it has been done per your request simple and takes 2 seconds! but know they want you to meet with your local bishop and stake president they send home teachers to your house etc etc,... sounds like your church of "free agency" has controle issues to me. again your blind. just cause your a "Liberal" mormon doesnt make you any better, you obviously live a life of double standards perhaps your loseing your faith and your just no ready to let go yet! my advice to you, let go and free yourself!

[Pink]

you lost me at riiight.

[s0crat0kes]

Id like to change my vote from Obama to Ron Paul, of course neither of these people will win their parties nomination it will be Clinton v Guiliani and therefor I will vote for a third party candidate.

[Drew]

i dunno, obama might be able to pick up some steam within the next year. there are a lot of people that don't like hillary

regardless, if hillary wins the democratic nomination, didn't she say she wanted obama to run with her as vp?

[T.Beck]

Id like to change my vote from Obama to Ron Paul, of course neither of these people will win their parties nomination it will be Clinton v Guiliani and therefor I will vote for a third party candidate.

Very very good change of vote. and Unfortunately I am afraid you are right, Gulliani vs Hillary, Hillary wins. I think we are off to a crazy patern:
Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton, thats messed up, we should learn to not elect people from the same family.

[Lindsay]

Riiiight, then how come they force all who who attend byu to follow LDS standards includeing non mormons?
It is a private school. They can enforce any rules that they want. Just like a catholic school can. Catholic schools they will have the rosaries, and the praying, and hell if i know what else exactly. BYU can have whatever rules it wants.

and why does this state make laws against things not of LDS standards? and why are there stupid no danceing after 2 a.m. laws? and why do mormon people not allow there children to hang out with non LDS children? causeing some kids to join the mormons at a young age, so they can have friends?(more of a small town mormon thing)
As far as dance laws, I don't know, I really don't care.
My parents never forbade me from associating from "non mormons" my 2 next door neighbors were my best friends growing up and one was catholic, and i forget what the other one was, but i know not lds. then the 2 girls in the house down the street were muslim.
I had many friends that were not lds. IN FACT, all the girls/kids in my ward all hated me, for reasons unknown, so I never hung out with any of them. Probably one of the major factors that led me to stop attending church.
anyway moving on...

and why is provo run like Nazi Germany given they are slowley looseing there power there too. but still. and why do they make it sooooooo hard for people to obtain liqour licenses in the state. alls you have to do is look around to see there obvious attempt at controling society at large includeing non mormons! your obviously blinded by your "faith" and you dont see it! and why for the love of god is it so hard for someone to have there name removed from the records of the LDS church and yes they do make it damn hard!! I could hook you up with a website full of pissed off people(thousands)who just dont want to be associated with the LDS church includeing that of them being listed as a member!? and the LDS church makes it ridiculously hard to do so all they really have to do is delete the persons name and send them a letter saying it has been done per your request simple and takes 2 seconds! but know they want you to meet with your local bishop and stake president they send home teachers to your house etc etc,... sounds like your church of "free agency" has controle issues to me. again your blind. just cause your a "Liberal" mormon doesnt make you any better, you obviously live a life of double standards perhaps your loseing your faith and your just no ready to let go yet! my advice to you, let go and free yourself!
eh yadda yadda... i don't care about provo...


Id like to change my vote from Obama to Ron Paul, of course neither of these people will win their parties nomination it will be Clinton v Guiliani and therefor I will vote for a third party candidate.
oh hell we are all fuct if that's how it turns out. cuz you know a third party isn't going to win. oh well, i will probably throw my vote away if that happens....

[s0crat0kes]

We're fucked no matter what, but don't listen to me, I'm just cynical.

[ZanGo]

Michael Jackson, he's better then all canidates up there, I need my boy Ralph Nader back in this shit!!! GREEN PARTY LIBERATERIANS!!!!

[ZanGo]

Hahaha. I was so piiiiiiiisssssssed when George W. Bush was elected. AND I WAS EVEN MORE PISSED THAT HE WAS RE-ELECTED! WTF!


For the Record.....I did cry......When this happened because I was so shocked on the reelection of George (I'll kill everyone if they smile at this country through a camera lens) Bush I dropped my cereal on my cell phone...true story

[PapaChops]

I think I just realized what it is 'bout Ron Paul and the like that gets to me. It's the exact same thing that drove me crazy about the folks who still support the war in Iraq by saying "Well Saddam was evil so we were justified by going in there."

For example, I remember one person who didn't support Ron Paul's stance and brought up outsourcing as one of the side effects of a free market, which often times leads to sweatshops in third-world countries. The response you'll probably hear to this is that "they're making more money now then they were before, improved working conditions, etc."

The glaring problem that is being overlooked here is the exact same problem that those Iraq War supporters overlook. All you've done is replaced on evil with a lesser evil. Yes, working conditions may have improved, but because these corporations are working in areas where the local governments have hardly any labor laws whatsoever to protect the workers the working conditions are still far below what your average person would consider respectable. That's like saying, "Yes they may be drinking sewer water but at least now they have water to drink!"

The problem with an entirely free market with the no government regulation is that large business view employees as a resource, not a human being. I think my brother said it best when he said, "The unemployment rate may be 4.8% but for those 14,454,717 people the unemployment rate is 100%." If they don't have a job, they don't have a job. Large businesses and corporations have a tendency to place a lesser value on the human being because the simple fact of the matter is that the goal of a business is to make money. Why do you think there are many companies who have such a high employee turn over rate? If your employees only stay with you for an average of three to six months then you don't have to pay them as much as the company who has a large amount of employees who've been with them for an average of one to five years.

The main reason why I don't view Ron Paul and these other folks as the knight in shining armor come to save or country is because ethics and values are a second priority to a large, multi-national business. That is why minimum wage is a good thing, that is why overtime is a good thing, that is why five day work weeks are a good thing. Because they remind businesses that those employees aren't just a resource, they're each an individual who has to put food on the table, and if they don't have a job, they don't have a job.

[T.Beck]

Papachops, you don't understand economics nor Ron Paul and have bought into socialist garbage propaganda for which I am sorry. I am done trying to explain things on this forum. Big business hates Ron Paul and gives his opponents money because he opposes corporate welfare that they benefit from.

As for economic globalism, your argument fails, why? because there is no such thing as magic. So you have poor peasants in an agrarian society, they can barely feed themselves, you cannot go from that to a 40 hour work week with tons of benefits and U.S. standard wages, it doesn't work. Economies take time to develop, by large companies going to other countries everyone benefits. The worker there earns much more than before, their standard of living is much much better and it is the first steps to going toward what we have here in the U.S. the company benefits by cutting costs and expanding profits thus being able to expand and provide more jobs for more people so there is less unemployed, and the consumer benefits by cheaper products making their dollar go further.

You really need to do some study on economics, here are some books to check out to help you understand, I myself still need to read a lot of them:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella20.html

[Bhairava]

As far as dance laws, I don't know, I really don't care.
....

and your a Raver? wow I would think something as important as a 2am dance law which prevents Actual raves from being thrown important to people in a culture like this.

[Bhairava]

I think I just realized what it is 'bout Ron Paul and the like that gets to me. It's the exact same thing that drove me crazy about the folks who still support the war in Iraq by saying "Well Saddam was evil so we were justified by going in there."

For example, I remember one person who didn't support Ron Paul's stance and brought up outsourcing as one of the side effects of a free market, which often times leads to sweatshops in third-world countries. The response you'll probably hear to this is that "they're making more money now then they were before, improved working conditions, etc."

The glaring problem that is being overlooked here is the exact same problem that those Iraq War supporters overlook. All you've done is replaced on evil with a lesser evil. Yes, working conditions may have improved, but because these corporations are working in areas where the local governments have hardly any labor laws whatsoever to protect the workers the working conditions are still far below what your average person would consider respectable. That's like saying, "Yes they may be drinking sewer water but at least now they have water to drink!"

The problem with an entirely free market with the no government regulation is that large business view employees as a resource, not a human being. I think my brother said it best when he said, "The unemployment rate may be 4.8% but for those 14,454,717 people the unemployment rate is 100%." If they don't have a job, they don't have a job. Large businesses and corporations have a tendency to place a lesser value on the human being because the simple fact of the matter is that the goal of a business is to make money. Why do you think there are many companies who have such a high employee turn over rate? If your employees only stay with you for an average of three to six months then you don't have to pay them as much as the company who has a large amount of employees who've been with them for an average of one to five years.

The main reason why I don't view Ron Paul and these other folks as the knight in shining armor come to save or country is because ethics and values are a second priority to a large, multi-national business. That is why minimum wage is a good thing, that is why overtime is a good thing, that is why five day work weeks are a good thing. Because they remind businesses that those employees aren't just a resource, they're each an individual who has to put food on the table, and if they don't have a job, they don't have a job.

Word! I think this is the most Intelligent thing I have read thus far! and here I thought all hopes with Utahraves.com was lost! I work for a large corporation unfortunately and I know how it works!

T.Beck Im afraid PapaChopa knows exactly what he is talking about! your the one who is confused and blind.

[PapaChops]

Papachops, you don't understand economics nor Ron Paul and have bought into socialist garbage propaganda for which I am sorry. I am done trying to explain things on this forum. Big business hates Ron Paul and gives his opponents money because he opposes corporate welfare that they benefit from.

As for economic globalism, your argument fails, why? because there is no such thing as magic. So you have poor peasants in an agrarian society, they can barely feed themselves, you cannot go from that to a 40 hour work week with tons of benefits and U.S. standard wages, it doesn't work. Economies take time to develop, by large companies going to other countries everyone benefits. The worker there earns much more than before, their standard of living is much much better and it is the first steps to going toward what we have here in the U.S. the company benefits by cutting costs and expanding profits thus being able to expand and provide more jobs for more people so there is less unemployed, and the consumer benefits by cheaper products making their dollar go further.

You really need to do some study on economics, here are some books to check out to help you understand, I myself still need to read a lot of them:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella20.html

Yep, I've totally bought into the socialist dogma. Because there's absolutely no precedent whatsoever for corporations to try and exploit labor laws just to make as much money as possible. Companies have NEVER tried to take advantage of their employees by paying them as little as they have to while trying to earn the largest profit possible. Yep, this has never happened in the history of human kind.

I'm not saying this is will be the only result if we were to remove all governmental intervention, but I can guarantee you that it would become more prevalent simply because you'd no longer have an organization patrolling them. Trying to claim it wouldn't occur would be naive. The more competitive things get, the more you'll have businesses doing everything in their power to gain a competitive edge. Just look at professional athletes if you don't believe me, because there is a perfect display of what people will do to gain the upper hand.

I do love how you seem to think that everyone who disagrees with you is under the spell of the socialist propaganda machine. Just because I place more value on the human worker and think they deserve basic health care, paid overtime, a minimum wage and other just things does not mean I'm making these claims because I hate big business and think we should stick it to the man (I'm a corporate employee.) It means that todays society doesn't put enough worth on the individual. Going to a totally free market is a bad thing, but also large amounts of governmental intervention is also a bad thing. If you can't see how either end of the spectrum is a bad thing then I feel bad for you, because you want to go from one to the other.

[Lindsay]

and your a Raver? wow I would think something as important as a 2am dance law which prevents Actual raves from being thrown important to people in a culture like this.
i'm not much of a raver anymore ;)
2am is more than adequate for me, heh

[T.Beck]

Papachops, first of all, thanks for actually being a rational human and not character and religion bashing unlike Bhairava.

However, I could go through and take time to explain to you why each of your laws to protect the worker actually hurt the worker, but I don't have the time, and you'd be better off reading it from a true expert scholar on the matter, which I am not.

[Bhairava]

Papachops, first of all, thanks for actually being a rational human and not character and religion bashing unlike Bhairava.

However, I could go through and take time to explain to you why each of your laws to protect the worker actually hurt the worker, but I don't have the time, and you'd be better off reading it from a true expert scholar on the matter, which I am not.

yeah and your name calling was totally rational!:rolleyes:

and by the way Unions were the only real security workers in this country had alas like all good things it is becoming no more!

[Opaz]

Yay for political drama!

[PapaChops]

Just because I'm having a debate doesn't mean we can't be civil about it.

And while yes, I'm sure you could find plenty of evidence from the scholarly types to back up your claims, you seem to think that your mentors are the only ones who have it right (The Austrian School of thought, aye?) Yet I do recall that there are other schools of thought who would seem to disagree with you and have just as many well versed minds backing up their side (who was it you were having a debate with that brought up the Keynsian Liquidity Trap?). For each side of an argument you can always find evidence to back it up.

At this point it's a value debate, plain and simple. We could both find evidence and books to cite backing up our claims that'd both be just as valid and well versed, but we'd just be running in circles. You'd feel that your evidence trumps mine and vice versa. That is why no side has ever truly one.

[Akc814ilv]

Im neither a Republican or a Democrat. Proud Libertarian here....

But im gonna vote for Obama more than likely. I like Ron Paul, but there isnt a chance in hell that he will get the nomination from the Neo Cons. I like a few of the other Dem's more than Obama as well, but none of them have a chance either.

I just hope its NOT Hillary, or Romney.

[T.Beck]

Yay for another libertarian! now I will have another voice to help me fight the socialists lol. you should still vote for Paul, in the Primary, though its a long shot I really do think he has a shot.

For Papachops, yes there are obviously differing scholarly sides to everything, which is why I like to hear each side and make the most reasonable conclusion as to who I think has it right/best, and why. I think because the philosophy of freedom makes the most logical and natural since, that is where I lean. This is a good short essay on the matter: http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory144.html

See, I have studied all sides and found what makes the most logical sense. Keynes has been proven wrong by his theroies being put into play and failing. People like Bhairava are so close minded they won't even look at a different side or opinion. I challenged him in a PM to read just one libertarian economics book and her refused. I will more than willingly read any socialist book you want.

[Pink]

a vote for government is a vote against the people.

[Killy]

At this point it's a value debate, plain and simple. We could both find evidence and books to cite backing up our claims that'd both be just as valid and well versed, but we'd just be running in circles. You'd feel that your evidence trumps mine and vice versa. That is why no side has ever truly one.
Quoted for truth.

I brought up Keynes because he had arguments against free markets. His theories are not fact, but neither are those arguing for the free market. Experiments have been done on both sides of the economic spectrum. These experiments all fail because of one thing: people are assholes. Maybe the majority of people are willing to work with each other, but there always will be a few people who are greedy, power hungry, etc that will do what ever they can to take control.

One thing to take into consideration when jumping into Libertarianism is that there is a very large group of "Libertarians" who are actually alienated conservative Republicans that decided to take the name Libertarian. A LOT of their style of debate/argument is pretty much the same as neo-con republicans. "You don't like this argument, so you must hate freedom and liberty! You don't adhere to strict free market beliefs, so you must be an evil Communist!" And on and on.

Money isn't the answer to societies ills, but people are. Don't ever ignore the ethical implications of political and economic decisions.

[T.Beck]

I don't think many libertarians are alienated republicans, those belong to the constitution party. A lot of libertarians come from both Republicans and democrats that realize the hypocricy in their parties.

I also don't think libertarians ever use the "you hate our freedom" Bush style Rhetoric, they are against that because they see how stupid it has been with the Bush administration. Libertarians tend to be very intelligent people that try sticking with logic and reason as their arguments.

IN states like Idaho and Utah you do get some of the whacky gun nut libertarians that are libertarian soley because its the only party that fully protects the 2nd amendment, but thats just a few.

[Killy]

Okay, maybe "hate" was too stong a word to put in there. How about "disagree"? Sound a little more familiar?

[PapaChops]

Quoted for truth.

I brought up Keynes because he had arguments against free markets. His theories are not fact, but neither are those arguing for the free market. Experiments have been done on both sides of the economic spectrum. These experiments all fail because of one thing: people are assholes. Maybe the majority of people are willing to work with each other, but there always will be a few people who are greedy, power hungry, etc that will do what ever they can to take control.

One thing to take into consideration when jumping into Libertarianism is that there is a very large group of "Libertarians" who are actually alienated conservative Republicans that decided to take the name Libertarian. A LOT of their style of debate/argument is pretty much the same as neo-con republicans. "You don't like this argument, so you must hate freedom and liberty! You don't adhere to strict free market beliefs, so you must be an evil Communist!" And on and on.

Money isn't the answer to societies ills, but people are. Don't ever ignore the ethical implications of political and economic decisions.

Now it's my turn to quote you for truthness:D

Especially those two parts in bold, as they are two things I've been saying for ages but people always ignore/disregard.

[Killy]

And now for something (http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Hillary-Clinton-Nutcracker/2568425/product.html) completely different.

[Akc814ilv]

Yay for another libertarian! now I will have another voice to help me fight the socialists lol. you should still vote for Paul, in the Primary, though its a long shot I really do think he has a shot.

For Papachops, yes there are obviously differing scholarly sides to everything, which is why I like to hear each side and make the most reasonable conclusion as to who I think has it right/best, and why. I think because the philosophy of freedom makes the most logical and natural since, that is where I lean. This is a good short essay on the matter: http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory144.html

See, I have studied all sides and found what makes the most logical sense. Keynes has been proven wrong by his theroies being put into play and failing. People like Bhairava are so close minded they won't even look at a different side or opinion. I challenged him in a PM to read just one libertarian economics book and her refused. I will more than willingly read any socialist book you want.


Yeah ill probably vote for Paul in the primaries. Kind of a wasted vote though because Romney will dominate the vote here in Utah.

Im glad to see there are other Libertarians here on these boards though. I wont be the wacky non Republican or Democrat like I am in every other political discussion I ever have in my life lol.