GM: Reactions please...

[dacumen]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/companies/gm/index.htm?postversion=2008110711 (http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/companies/gm/index.htm?postversion=2008110711)

I'm just curious how the liberal Obama supporters on this board feel about the latest news of cash shortages at GM and Ford. Obama wants to (a) raise corporate income taxes and (b) force U.S. auto makers (through government mandates) to invest billions of dollars they don't have into alternative fuel research to build cars that are significantly more expensive feature-for-feature than current galosine models and thus not really market viable. Democrats in Washington are trying to put a band-aid on the situation by throwing money at GM, but I fail to see how Obama's campaign rhetoric will help the situation in Michigan. Any ideas (or excuses) from his supporters on this board?

[Senor Tapatio]

hmm. It's a debatable issue, one where no immediate solutions can come from a single individual. Let the man figure shit out, I love how the non supporters expect him to have all these solutions to problems it took us years to get into.

In the meantime, let's hear also from the non-supporters. This affects everyone equally, no?

p.s. I don't drive american cars for personal reasons.

[Drew]

Honestly, i think that american auto makers dropped the ball a long time ago, they have been struggling for years making substandard gas guzzlers while the market wanted less expensive, more efficient cars. They have had plenty of opportunity to see where the market was heading in order to research more efficient vehicles.

I think detroit should sink or swim without a bailout.

[Third_Eye]

You are right Drew. I view this situation in the same light as the wall street issue. I opposed the bailout. Those jackasses got themselves in this problem, they aren't victims of circumstance. Same with the auto industry. They SHOULD have been doing these things a long time ago, and they chose not to. They made bad business decisions and they did not properly adapt their product to the changing market place or customer demand. The result? People stopped buying SUVs and started buying Toyotas. These mandates are only being put into effect because the auto industry is too incompetant to do it themselves. The reason to help them is because a shit load of people will be out of work if they fail. I for one am tired of us having to give huge sums of money to these corporations (financial firms, airline industry, auto industry) after they run their companies into the ground and start laying off workers and cutting their benefits while the people at the top retain their high salaries and balloon payments. I don't feel bad for the auto industry, not one bit. They did this to themselves, the government had to step in to help the workers. The whole system needs to change, this bailout money should be coming out of their personal pocket books instead of the taxpayers.



Not an Obama support, BTW.

[NuQ]

I agree with everything said above... They got themselves into the problem, but here are the two viable options... let them go bankrupt or nationalise them. The former causes a massive loss in jobs and our own ability to export goods. the latter keeps the company in business but at a cost to tax payers. both options hurt the middle class, but the latter option allows for a better possibility to rebound once we find a bottom in our economy. I am not a fan of american cars, for good reason. but this is not just about quality of product, this is about a bigger picture view of the economy as a whole. most people aren't buying their product because they can't afford it, and yet... one job lost in a closed gm plant can cost as much as 12 losses in jobs in the surrounding, local economy. no more people are needed to serve in diners, because people can not afford to eat out. you're fired. no more people needed to work the gas station, because no one can afford to drive. you're fired.

using the analogy of a "band-aid", I think a Band-aid is better than letting it bleed out. i am not a supporter of obama or mccain... i voted for obama as the lesser of two evils. both candidates promised to "fix the economy" but still have no plan. why? well... the best and brightest of minds in the economical and mathematical fields still DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS WRONG. you can't fix a problem you're not fully aware of.

Why did i vote for obama? not because of his stance on the domestic issues, but for his foreign policy and his diplomacy. why foreign policy was so important to me is this: over 60% of the money that WAS in our market was provided by foreign investors, not just individual firms but national governments. McCain's campaign rhetoric about his qualifications was all about him being a celebrated war veteran and one who will NOT BACK DOWN(doesn't sound like he would be willing to compromise, eh?)

this is a global economic crisis(that they, the world, blame us for. rightfully so) and we will not be able to get ourselves back on our feet without some compromise and a continuing cooperation with the rest of the world.
Any politician that tells you they know how to fix this situation is blowing smoke up your ass. we still don't know what's going on.

I like the band-aid, I like taking a diplomatic approach. I didn't want another american "war-bird" in office, no matter how fiscally responsible he and his party claim to be.

Edit: oh... jsut so i'm clear, i think the current crisis was bi-partisan. democrats are equally as responsible for this oversight as the republicans.

[dacumen]

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1858702,00.html?cnn=yes (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1858702,00.html?cnn=yes)

Those are all interesting perspectives, but unfortunately the whole "...let it die" argument doesn't fly in the real world we live in. The President of the United States doesn't have the option to ignore the loss of nearly TWO MILLION JOBS just because Honda builds a better product. I'm also not inclined to wait and give Obama a pass for six months while he decides whether his campaign rhetoric will actually hold water and stand up to the acid test of real-world policy.

The Nation's largest industrial manufacturer is eight months away from folding. Do you:

a. Raise taxes on it to see if you can get it to fold in six months instead of eight?

b. Pass a Congressional mandate forcing it to spend more than 10% of it's cash in research on alternative energy and clean air vehicles that won't be commercially viable until well into the next decade?

or

c. Walk away from all your naive campaign rhetoric about saving the middle class by soaking American businesses, solar panels on every roof and turning Texas into a corn field to fuel ethanol cars and go back to graduate school until you know enough about U.S. economic Policy to govern effectively?

[Jen]

Go VW :D

[Hed:NoiZe]

Screw bailing them out, let them fold. Our money should be spent on other things, like improving our own well being. I did not vote, but if I had, Obama would have had my vote, even though neither of them should have even been consider for president, IMO

[Boombaka]

[/URL][url]http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1858702,00.html?cnn=yes (\"http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1858702,00.html?cnn=yes\")

Those are all interesting perspectives, but unfortunately the whole \"...let it die\" argument doesn't fly in the real world we live in. The President of the United States doesn't have the option to ignore the loss of nearly TWO MILLION JOBS just because Honda builds a better product. I'm also not inclined to wait and give Obama a pass for six months while he decides whether his campaign rhetoric will actually hold water and stand up to the acid test of real-world policy.

The Nation's largest industrial manufacturer is eight months away from folding. Do you:

a. Raise taxes on it to see if you can get it to fold in six months instead of eight?

b. Pass a Congressional mandate forcing it to spend more than 10% of it's cash in research on alternative energy and clean air vehicles that won't be commercially viable until well into the next decade?

or

c. Walk away from all your naive campaign rhetoric about saving the middle class by soaking American businesses, solar panels on every roof and turning Texas into a corn field to fuel ethanol cars and go back to graduate school until you know enough about U.S. economic Policy to govern effectively?

d. Fire the executives, nationalize the company, redistribute executive salaries to the line workers, end NAFTA to bring factories and jobs home and create a new business plan making lower cost, higher efficiency vehicles.

[dacumen]

d. Fire the executives, nationalize the company, redistribute executive salaries to the line workers, end NAFTA to bring factories and jobs home and create a new business plan making lower cost, higher efficiency vehicles.

Ok, let me get this straight: You actually BELIEVE that the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, a bunch of LAWYERS inside the Beltway, will do a better job running a corporation than GM Execs did? Hmmm, interesting perspective. May I remind you that I pay 12.4% of my gross income into a retirement system run by these people. I have no property rights over my investment, It gets a negative rate of return, and the fund (by the most optimistic of estimates) will be "belly-up and convulsing" TWENTY YEARS before I'm ready to retire. It's currently 19 TRILLION dollars in debt...an amount that makes the Mortgage bailout look like a down payment on one of GM's automobiles.

Wake up dude. The Soviet Union is as dead as Carl Marx...you can't go back even if you want to.

In a side note, just to point out how out of touch with reality plan "d." really is, If you took the $10 Million that the "C" level execs at GM get paid in salaries every year and divided it up among GM's 250,000 workers, that would amount to $40 per YEAR per worker...and now you'd have an MBA student from Detroit City College getting paid $14 per hour to run the nation's largest industrial firm.

Ending NAFTA means the price of GMs cars would rise by at least 15 - 20% because curent union mandated healthcare benefits force GM to pay 2 - 3 TIMES as much for the average US worker as international parts operations...and GM has no flexibility to renegotiate these costs. Lee Iacocca (former Chrysler Chairman and CEO) recently pointed out in an interview that U.S. auto makers were doomed to extinction simply because of their out-of-control healthcare and pension costs. This is frankly one of the main reasons they can't domestically produce the "lower cost, higher efficiency vehicles" you mention. They can't afford to.

How about option "e." abolish the UAW and start over with a more streamlined company that can pay workers whatever the hell it wants. In other words, try capitalism for a change. The collectivist attitude you profess is part of what got GM into this mess in the FIRST place! It certainly isn't because Americans can't design and build efficient and technologically innovative automobiles. If that was the case, why would Honda's top design studio be based in San Diego, and it's most efficient factory in Ohio?

[Drew]

How about option "e." abolish the UAW and start over with a more streamlined company that can pay workers whatever the hell it wants. In other words, try capitalism for a change.

I agree with this. Or at least start over with a more industry-friendly union that won't be so spoiled that it kills the industry it works for, but that's the decision of the automakers, not politicians. If any politician tried to do anything to the unions, there would be a shitstorm.

[Pink]

I believe they should fail.. those jobs should be lost.. those workers who are put out of work should find new jobs or create new jobs.. first we gave money to the bankers to keep them afloat.. next we give money to the auto industry to keep it afloat.. we are one step away from becoming communism.. the american dream is that any one man and grow up out of the ashes and make a living/life for himself.. not any one company. it's their own fault for working for a company that isn't viable in the long term economics of the world.. we can't guzzle gas forever. things need to change.

throwing our tax money at a lost cause is worse then throwing our tax money into iraq..

seriously stretching out the inevitable is a waste of time.. let the big three fail.. let those jobs be lost.. some of those workers are bound to do something incredible. - ; )

of course i'm for all out anarchy and true free markets.

[Kaos]

Hard call, the increase in taxes needed to actually provide the needed funds to bail them out, would more then likely be felt by all tax payers, granted not equally im sure.

But in an area already hit with hard times in the present economy, the loss of jobs in the detroit area alone if the Big 3 fell, would be very destructive.

I fully agree that the companies themselves fully deserve to be allowed to hang themselves with the rope they have given themselves, but to allow that many people to become unemployed is just asking for problems. I do Network Security for a living, and one thing that has taught me, is that boredom can turn destructive, and 2 million bored auto workers bent pissed that the government didnt do anything to help them keep their jobs, sounds like some destructive boredom to me....

So its down to Keep the Peace, give them cash, and keep the big three up, im sure at a nice slice of increased taxes to all..

Or let them drown in their own mistakes, pull the life support plug, and hope the millions of auto industry workers put out of work find something better then mugging looting and pillaging to do for work to feed the wife and kids.

[Boombaka]

How about option "e." abolish the UAW and start over with a more streamlined company that can pay workers whatever the hell it wants. In other words, try capitalism for a change.
I know huh? If only we could have sweatshop child labor making cars for a quarter a day, then we would be really progressing as a society! Damn minimum wage, work safety standards and providing health care to workers....

[Wooly Willy]

It's a double edged sword for taxpayers. If we let them fail we will have thousands upon thousands of people out of work. Detroit would become a third world city in no time. I think the system failed on several different fronts; the unions are killing the big three with their requirements, they have been behind on making smaller/cheaper/better built cars, and they haven't dealt with the gas mileage syndrome that is affecting the entire planet.

My suggestion (I'm willing, I doubt anyone else is) is raise taxes on us mid level bastards. We bail out the auto industry on one condition: that money goes to make vehicles radically different. At least half of the cars being output run on alternative fuels like natural gas or are electric cars, the rest need to be hybrids or get radically better gas mileage. I think this is the only way to save the auto industry. Throwing money at them is just going to prolong the inevitable, we have to CHANGE the way detroit makes and sells cars. Big oil has got to be a last resort.

[Boombaka]

My suggestion (I'm willing, I doubt anyone else is) is raise taxes on us mid level bastards.
Why us mid level bastards? The top 1% of the United States holds 40% of the wealth.

[Wooly Willy]

Why us mid level bastards? The top 1% of the United States holds 40% of the wealth.
I understand this but I think this is one of those times when we should appreciate something and all pitch in to make it better. The technology is there, the will of the people is there, we need to change our vehicle industry now. I'm willing to pay extra taxes to see the realization of a better car/ car industry. America is the land of opportunity (supposedly) lets get on the ball and prove we can make a better car. This is one thing I have faith we can change, we all need to make our voices heard though. Gasoline is not the answer anymore, we all know it.

[Scott the Ghost]

I think some of the money that was allotted in the original 700 Billion bailout should be used for the bailout of the auto industry. As much as I am not in support of bailouts and support the free market I think if the auto industry fails the effects it will have upon our country and economy would be extremely drastic. The failure of the auto industry would do away with almost 1 million jobs and and tons in tax revenue each year for the federal government.
I think a large problem with the auto industry is the union packages that are given to retirees. I think it was 1/3 of the money put out each year by the auto industry goes to supporting retirees pensions and medical benefits. Part of the auto makers fault was allowing themselves to get pushed around by the union and committing to something that no business can afford to agree to.

[dacumen]

I know huh? If only we could have sweatshop child labor making cars for a quarter a day, then we would be really progressing as a society! Damn minimum wage, work safety standards and providing health care to workers....

All very interesting points...except this one by Boombaka. Dude, are you serious or are you just messin' with people.

I personally think de-unionizing the big three is the answer. Make that a condition of any bailout offer. I agree that it's not Washington's place to break up Unions UNLESS Washington is being asked to shell out cash to clean up a mess that's partly the Union's fault.

It's interesting; We keep talking about building better cars in Detroit. We want them smaller, less gasoline reliant, etc. I personally will NEVER own a car made by the big three now that Ford has sold Aston Martin and Land Rover. Personally I drive an Acura and my wife drives a VW. The fact is Toyota and Honda simply build better cars (I don't like Shirley's Jetta...it came with the package).

What I find interesting is that neither Toyota nor Honda have unions. The UAW keeps trying to unionize their plants to no avail. Why is it so hard? Probably because Honda and Toyota pay competetive wages and offer good (but not RIDICULOUS or COMPANY KILLING) benefits. As a result, their costs are much lower and they can use their labor savings to invest in building better cars like the new Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered FCX.

http://world.honda.com/news/2008/4080805FCX-Clarity/image/01_s.jpg

The fact, is that capitalism, free markets, and freedom of labor will ensure good wages and good benefits in a mature economy like ours. If Honda tried to run a sweat shop, they'd loose all their potential workers to Wal-mart, 7-Eleven, and Apple. My company desn't have a Union. We throw lavish parties and heap benefits on our employees so we can continue to lure them away from Novell. That's competition (something Boom obviously never studied in school). The only time you see bad working conditions in factories is at the beginning of an industrial transformation when there's little or no competition for that labor. This is the 21st century. Unions have WAY outlived their usefullness. It's time to move on and get down to business!

[Boombaka]

Unions and labor organizing are the reason we actually have a minimum wage, workers rights and safety programs such as OSHA. True capitalism would take us back to the days when children were working 16 hour days in the factories, because if thats what the free market wants who is the government to get involved and say its wrong. Capitalism and free markets never ensure good wages or benefits for anyone other than the top echelon. Look at how many jobs the US has lost to the supposed free market, with factories being shipped to Mexico and other countries where manufactures do not have to pay a living wage or basic work standards.

Look for instance at economies that have operated under true laissez-faire economics. Chile for instance is a perfect example if you look at the US sponsored overthrow of democratically elected socialist president Salvador Allende and the installment of a military dictator Augusto Pinochet.

If you want to see an example of true free market capitalism take a look at Chile under Pinochet. It was lauded as an "economic miracle" by Margaret Thatcher and the US for its change from socialism to a free market system.

While Pinochet was in power from 1973 and 1990 , there were large cuts to incomes and social services. Wages decreased by 8%. Family allowances in 1989 were 28% of what they had been in 1970 and the budgets for education, health and housing had dropped by over 20% on average. 5% of the population received 25% of the total national income in 1972, it received 50% in 1975. Wage and salary earners got 64% of the national income in 1972 but only 38% at the beginning of 1977. Malnutrition affected half of the nation's children, and 60% of the population could not afford the minimum protein and food energy per day. Infant mortality also increased sharply. Cumulative cuts in health funding totaled 60% between 1973 and 1988. The cuts indirectly caused a significant rise in many preventable diseases and mental health problems. These included rises in typhoid (121%,) viral hepatitis, and an increase in the frequency and seriousness of mental ailments among the unemployed.

Since the restoration of democracy Chile has favored the socialist party and both Ricardo Lagos and Michelle Bachelet (the past two presidents) are both members of the socialist party. Since the socialists took power the economy has improved as they increasingly have abandoned the old free market policies.

[dacumen]

Boom, let me simplify this for you;
Do YOU belong to a Union?
Can you name for me ONE company in Utah that actually HAS a Union (other than UPS and Delta)?
Describe for me what advantages workers at that company have over workers at firms in Utah that are not unionized.
Explain to me how Honda's workers get along just fine (and build better cars) WITHOUT a union while GM, Ford, and Chrysler are being strangled to the point of bankrupcy by labor costs mandated by one?
Finally, explain to me how an auto company that pays it's workers on average $78.21 per hour in wages and benefits can POSSIBLY survive in this economy even with $25 Billion in loans from the federal government? Wouldn't it make more sense to break the union by federal mandate, renegotiate all labor contracts, and bring that hourly figure down to a more sensible (and competetive) level BEFORE giving GM a hoard of cash to help it survive?

[Wooly Willy]

I don't think that we should demonize unions, but I do believe that the unionization of the auto industry "now" needs to be revamped. Unions are very good for certain industries and people (my brother is in an electricians union) but the auto industry can't live on what they are paying people "right now".

So, let's bail them out on the condition they cut the gas guzzlers completely out. The internal combustion engine is a fossil and should be treated as such. The environment needs to be a very big part of EVERY part of our economy. Green business should not be a term anymore, everyone HAS to go green. It's no longer a variable, it's a constant that has to be dealt with right now. There are very real and good ways to change our lifestyles that can benefit the environment, our health and OUR ECONOMY!!

I think the american dream of owning huge homes and huge cars needs to be put away forever. We simply cannot live like that anymore.

[Boombaka]

Do YOU belong to a Union?

No, but I would if there was one for my industry. You would be stupid to not join a union given the opportunity. A union provides collective bargaining power if you are ever mistreated, overlooked for a raise, harassed or discriminated against. It also leads to a higher salary and better working conditions.

2.Can you name for me ONE company in Utah that actually HAS a Union (other than UPS and Delta)?

I dont live in Utah, but here is a list of some active unions in Utah:

- AFGE - American Federation Of Government Employees
- AFL-CIO - AFL-CIO
- AFM - American Federation of Musicians
- APWU - American Postal Workers Union
- ATU - Amalgamated Transit Union
- BAC - International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craft Workers
- BLE - Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers
- BMWE - Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees
- CWA - Communication Workers of America
- IATSE - International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees
- IBB - International Brotherhood of Boilermakers
- IBEW - International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
- IBT - International Brotherhood of Teamsters
- IUEC - International Union of Elevator Constructors
- IUOE - International Union of Operating Engineers
- IUPAT - International Union of Painters and Allied Trades
- IW - Iron Workers
- LIUNA - Laborers International Union of North America
- NALC - National Association of Letter Carriers
- NPMHU - National Postal Mail Handlers Union
- OPCMIA - Operative Plasterers' and Cement Masons' International Association
- SEIU - Service Employees International Union
- UA - United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipefitting Industry
- UFCW - United Food and Commercial Workers
- UMWA - United Mine Workers of America
- USWA - United Steel Workers
- UTU - United Transportation Union

3. Describe for me what advantages workers at that company have over workers at firms in Utah that are not unionized:

Unions give you power in numbers to address grievances against an employer. Examples of union benefits:

· No discrimination policy - employers cannot discriminate against employees because of union membership, age, creed, color, sexual preference, religion, etc. These things are "guaranteed" by Fair Employment laws, but without a union grievance procedure, workers usually have to file costly lawsuits in order to win discrimination cases against the boss. A union contract makes this much easier to enforce.
· Grievance procedure - one of the cornerstones of unionism. This system provides a way for most conflicts between management and employees to be peacefully resolved. If an employee feels he or she has been wronged and cannot resolve it with management, a union representative will meet with a management representative and try to resolve the issue. If that fails, another attempt is made with the management representative's superior. If that fails, an outside arbitrator is called in, whose word is binding on both parties.
· Hours & Overtime defined - usually 40 hours at 8 hours a day. If more than 8 hours in one day or 40 hours in one week are worked, overtime must be paid.
· Work breaks defined - usually two 15 minute breaks per 8 hours worked.
· Union Stewards - union stewards are simply employees who are elected to represent the union on the job site. They make sure the contract is not violated, help employees that have problems with management, and handle most of the grievance procedure etc.
· Appeal from discharge - in the event that an employee is fired, he or she can appeal to the union for help within 30 days.
· Wages - the biggie! Union contracts will usually define what the base rate of pay is.
· Raises - Contracts will lay out the raise system for the life of the contract. Most union contracts base that rate of pay on either a fixed percentage or the Consumer Price Index (adjusted annually for inflation). A good rule of thumb is the fixed percentage should be at least as much as the annually increase in the cost of living.
· Shift differential - unpopular/inconvenient shifts can be awarded a slightly higher wage - either a flat rate (so much per hour) or a percentage of the employee's normal wage per hour. (Often 10%)
· Birthday as a holiday - Happy Birthday! Take the day off!
· Health care - Most unions will work to insure that the employee has no monthly contribution.
· Pension fund - the contract states that the employer will contribute so much per month to a pension fund. This amount usually increased as the employee gains more seniority. Some of multi-employer pension funds, and some are simple 401k plans.
· Quality of Work Life Committee - representatives for management and the employees meet in a committee monthly to work together to determine the best path for the store or plant to take.

4.Explain to me how Honda's workers get along just fine (and build better cars) WITHOUT a union while GM, Ford, and Chrysler are being strangled to the point of bankrupcy by labor costs mandated by one?

Honda workers are looking to unionize. You can’t blame the big 3’s failed business plan on the union. If the US were to end NAFTA and implement a Fair Trade policy where we only will import cars that come from factories that ensure basic work standards and pay a living wage we could effectively even the playing field. Also as the US has increasingly shipped factory jobs to Mexico where there are essentially no work standards or minimum pay, has the efficiency of cars increased? Or the price decreased? No.

5.Finally, explain to me how an auto company that pays it's workers on average $78.21 per hour in wages and benefits can POSSIBLY survive in this economy even with $25 Billion in loans from the federal government? Wouldn't it make more sense to break the union by federal mandate, renegotiate all labor contracts, and bring that hourly figure down to a more sensible (and competetive) level BEFORE giving GM a hoard of cash to help it survive?

So slashing employee benefits and wages is going to help the company survive? I think not. Otherwise the past years of massive outsourcing would have saved them. GM will make profits when it makes a car that people want to buy.

[dacumen]

I don't think that we should demonize unions, but I do believe that the unionization of the auto industry "now" needs to be revamped. Unions are very good for certain industries and people (my brother is in an electricians union) but the auto industry can't live on what they are paying people "right now".

So, let's bail them out on the condition they cut the gas guzzlers completely out. The internal combustion engine is a fossil and should be treated as such. The environment needs to be a very big part of EVERY part of our economy. Green business should not be a term anymore, everyone HAS to go green. It's no longer a variable, it's a constant that has to be dealt with right now. There are very real and good ways to change our lifestyles that can benefit the environment, our health and OUR ECONOMY!!

I think the american dream of owning huge homes and huge cars needs to be put away forever. We simply cannot live like that anymore.

In this thread I'm overstating the evil of unions for rhetorical purposes. You're right, not all unions are all bad. Frankly, I just think the UAW needs to take a cyanide pill.

That said, ...DUDE!!! There's a REASON we all drive gasoline vehicles, and it's a very good one. THEY'RE CHEAP!!! The hydrogen fuel-cell powered Honda FCX I mentioned earlier is so damned expensive Honda won't even SELL it! You can only "Lease" the car for $600 per month, after which you have to give it back to Honda. Furthermore, they can't produce it in high enough volume to supply the transportation needs of my neighborhood, much less the United States.

It's not "BIG CARS" that are the American dream, it's CHEAP cars in high volume!!! What exactly do you recommend; that we all drive around in six figure, green automobiles that can only be refueled at three dozen specially equipped fuel stations in the country and take turns driving them to work? Do YOU drive a hydrogen or electric car? ...I didn't think so.

Americans will pay more to protect the environment, but not FIVE TIMES MORE!!! We're not stupid, and neither is the rest of the world.

Telling GM to shelve the internal combustion engine makes about as much sense for the company and for consumers as asking them to go into the chocolate business. The company needs REAL solutions, not pipe-dreams.

Boom,

1. I didn't think so.
2. I said name a COMPANY!
3. I wanted a list of real advantages from a real company vs. other real companies in Utah that don't have unions. Your hypathetical list of presumed benefits isn't what I asked for.
4. No, Honda workers are NOT trying to unionize and there's a reason for that. They already get great benefits and great pay. Why pay a union to do the job of an Human Resources department?
5. SEVENTY EIGHT DOLLARS AND TWENTY ONE CENTS PER HOUR, Boom! You obviously never took business or economics in school, but I presume you took math? That's $162,676 per worker per year!!! YES, cutting worker's pay and benefits WILL help save the company. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.

[Senor Tapatio]

America

http://image.truckinweb.com/f/opinions/will-gm-build-a-hummer-hybrid/6841519+w640+cr1+re0+ar1/hummer-h2-sut.jpg

F*ck Yeaahh!

[Wooly Willy]

I'm not saying that we need to go to hydrogen automatically, or any other specific fuel source exactly. There are VERY cheap ways of mass producing strictly electric motor cars though. America's dream of cheaper and easier can still be attained but the gasoline driven cars are basically obsolete and we won't accept it. We can easily change our vehicles to cleaner natural gas, I'm willing to pay much higher taxes to give it a better insentive. We need to ween ourselves away from gasoline, period. I'm not just saying that large gas guzzlers need to go, all gasoline cars need to become obsolete. Sure, the economy is important to everyone around but we are killing ourselves with this lifestyle and we need to change. I'm doing my best to conserve everything from food to driving. I live in a very small house, I eat all the food I make, I recycle everything I can and I choose food that is better for myself. I'm not perfect but I think this is a start that we should ALL be doing. It's no longer a choice in my book, it's over. Living green is the only way we can stay on this planet.

[dacumen]

I'm not saying that we need to go to hydrogen automatically, or any other specific fuel source exactly. There are VERY cheap ways of mass producing strictly electric motor cars though. America's dream of cheaper and easier can still be attained but the gasoline driven cars are basically obsolete and we won't accept it. We can easily change our vehicles to cleaner natural gas, I'm willing to pay much higher taxes to give it a better insentive. We need to ween ourselves away from gasoline, period. I'm not just saying that large gas guzzlers need to go, all gasoline cars need to become obsolete. Sure, the economy is important to everyone around but we are killing ourselves with this lifestyle and we need to change. I'm doing my best to conserve everything from food to driving. I live in a very small house, I eat all the food I make, I recycle everything I can and I choose food that is better for myself. I'm not perfect but I think this is a start that we should ALL be doing. It's no longer a choice in my book, it's over. Living green is the only way we can stay on this planet.

Ok, I hear you on the natural gas thing. NGV conversion costs $5,000 - $7,000. I'd do it myself but (a) I don't have an extra $5k lying around and (b) I'm not sure I want some aftermarket kit installed in the engine of by TSX. If I still had my old civic I'd do it, but the idea of using a car I spent $35,000 on as a science experiment makes me nervous.

Anyway, natural gas is STILL a fossile fuel so what's next? Does GM offer NGV conversion as an option until hydrogen becomes commrcially viable? And since there isn't enough NGV demand to save GM, it sounds like detroit is just doomed.

[Boombaka]

1. I didn't think so.
2. I said name a COMPANY!
3. I wanted a list of real advantages from a real company vs. other real companies in Utah that don't have unions. Your hypathetical list of presumed benefits isn't what I asked for.
4. No, Honda workers are NOT trying to unionize and there's a reason for that. They already get great benefits and great pay. Why pay a union to do the job of an Human Resources department?
5. SEVENTY EIGHT DOLLARS AND TWENTY ONE CENTS PER HOUR, Boom! You obviously never took business or economics in school, but I presume you took math? That's $162,676 per worker per year!!! YES, cutting worker's pay and benefits WILL help save the company. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
There are only 2 employees working with me and we are both basically C-level at this point. No real need to unionize when you are making good money, have a secured salary, health care and insane benefits. But if you are working for a large corporation who at any whim could fire you, discriminate against you, cut your pay or benefits, put you in unsafe work situation, or demand unpaid overtime... then yes, you would be stupid to not unionize. I don't need collective bargaining power here because of the work situation. Its completely irrelevant to the situation of the autoworkers or any other major corporation.

I really dont think you understand how unions work. You have unionized workers in many companies in Utah. That doesn't necessarily mean all workers in those companies are unionized.

The history of the coal mining industry in Utah is a perfect example. The coal miners who died in the most recent disasters were not unionized. If they felt that the mine was unsafe and went to their employer they could be fired and easily replaced with other workers willing to take the risk and potentially die. The United Mine Workers of America have a long history of advocating on behalf of mine workers in Utah creating safer work environements and protecting them from illegal terminations and a recourse to lobby their bosses to pay them a living wage.

[dacumen]

Dude, there are two things I notice in your arguments.

1. You keep confusing benefits of state and federal "labor laws" with the benefits of "labor unions"

and

2. You keep using under-developed economies or ancient history to prove that without unions, we'd all be working in caves.

I'm not saying unions DIDN'T have their place once upon a time, but this is the 21st century and ours is a mature economy. We have laws in place to protect against descrimination and abuse and Unions have for the most part outlived their usefullness. I'm not sayign unions didn't play an active role in helping to enact many of our labor laws back when our economy was in it's infancy, but TODAY those laws stand by themselves and don't need help.

Boom, I know you're trying to be a communist and all that, but damn! It's as though you fell asleep reading a copy of Germinal and woke up convinced you were still living in the 19th century. McFly, this is 2008! Your startup doesn't now and never will need a union. No startup I've ever founded or been a part of ever needed a union. My company has 1200 employees and we don't need no union. Apple doesn't need a union. Microsoft doesn't need a union. Sears doesn't need a union. Neither does Walmart, Honda, or GM! Unions, for the most part, are a relic of the past. The UAW in particular is a parasite that is strangling it's host. It needs to go. Only then will aid to Detroit make any sense.

[Boombaka]

Dude, there are two things I notice in your arguments.

1. You keep confusing benefits of state and federal "labor laws" with the benefits of "labor unions"

and

2. You keep using under-developed economies or ancient history to prove that without unions, we'd all be working in caves.

I'm not saying unions DIDN'T have their place once upon a time, but this is the 21st century and ours is a mature economy. We have laws in place to protect against descrimination and abuse and Unions have for the most part outlived their usefullness. I'm not sayign unions didn't play an active role in helping to enact many of our labor laws back when our economy was in it's infancy, but TODAY those laws stand by themselves and don't need help.

1. Most workers do not have the resources to fight a corporate legal team. Also most of the labor laws have been set in place through the tireless effort of unions.

2. I only once cited an under-developed economy (Chile) and never cited ancient history. The coal mining industry is alive and well in Utah.

Workers pay significant dues to be a part of the union. Obviously they see the benefit.

[dacumen]

1. Most workers do not have the resources to fight a corporate legal team. Also most of the labor laws have been set in place through the tireless effort of unions.

2. I only once cited an under-developed economy (Chile) and never cited ancient history. The coal mining industry is alive and well in Utah.

Workers pay significant dues to be a part of the union. Obviously they see the benefit.

You are correct about ancient history, I misread your last post.

The workers who pay significant dues to be part of unions are COMPELLED to do so because the unions in their workplace are compulsory. It is far from obvious that they see benefits, especially since the unionized auto makers in this country are about six months away from going belly up and laying every single one of those 'unionized' workers off.

Furthermore, as far as the Utah mine accidents are concerned, it's unclear to me that a union would do anything that the Utah Mine Safety Commission wouldn't. It seems to me that the accident was more a failure of oversight and enforcement of current law than a lack of a union.

And are all our labor laws really the result of the tireless work of unions (i.e. union "lobbyists") or the tireless effort of legislators working on behalf of their constituents? It seems to me you give unions a hell of allot of credit for a guy who doesn't have any first hand experience with them. I'm curious; when will the union be started at your company, since they're so invaluable to your future employees?

[Boombaka]

It seems to me you give unions a hell of allot of credit for a guy who doesn't have any first hand experience with them. I'm curious; when will the union be started at your company, since they're so invaluable to your future employees?
You do a lot of assuming. I have done work with several unions, most recently with the UFCW, and have done organizing work on the ground in Nicaragua, Mexico and Honduras. I have also worked in factories in Utah that were in desperate need of a union.

That is pretty irrelevant though. Have you ever worked at General Motors? Seems to me you give unions a hell of allot of grief for a guy who doesn't have any first hand experience as an automaker on a production line.

There is a critical need for unionization in large corporations, or even for factory workers, construction works, etc. If we ever expand beyond a couple people it might make sense to join a union. Right now it doesn't. I don't see why that is so hard to understand?

[Wooly Willy]

Ok, I hear you on the natural gas thing. NGV conversion costs $5,000 - $7,000. I'd do it myself but (a) I don't have an extra $5k lying around and (b) I'm not sure I want some aftermarket kit installed in the engine of by TSX. If I still had my old civic I'd do it, but the idea of using a car I spent $35,000 on as a science experiment makes me nervous.

Anyway, natural gas is STILL a fossile fuel so what's next? Does GM offer NGV conversion as an option until hydrogen becomes commrcially viable? And since there isn't enough NGV demand to save GM, it sounds like detroit is just doomed.
We're still looking too close to one single thing. I personally think completely electric cars for close range travel is necessary. If you drive 30-40 miles a day, you should be driving a completely electric car. I also think it is a good idea to be thinking about tax credits/rebates to TOTALLY change your existing car into a cleaner burning car. I understand you think about your fiscal responsibility more than your environmental responsibility, which is your own choice. A $35,000 vehicle is just something I don't understand though. I understand people judge others by their material posessions but a car worth $10,000 with $5000 put into can run much farther and cleaner than that $35,000 car. That leaves you with $20,000 to invest in whatever you want.

I can't really judge why you pay for your things, we are all free to spend as we want. My personal opinion is that fiscal responsibility takes a very far second to environmental responsibility. They tie together in the long run but it's hard for us to see it yet. We will all get our chance to realize the impact we have on our world.

[Drew]

they should just make nuclear powered cars already.

i mean COME ON!! IT'S THE 21ST CENTURY!!

[Wooly Willy]

I want my flying cars. They said we would have flying cars in the 21st century, SO WHERE THE FUCK ARE THEY?

Nuclear, it's pronounced NEW'KU'LAR.

[TrainWreckAudio]

Actually, every problem will eventually lead back to us living in a monetary based society. It will always bring corruption and eventually all the power will land in the hands of a small group of people. For example, our current problem with the Financial, Housing, and now Auto Industry, all can be traced back to the Federal Reserve Bank(FRB). The FRB is a private corporation that we pay Federal Income Tax(Side Note: there is no law stating that we have to pay Federal Income Tax and all the money goes to our nations debt to the FRB) to. Now heres the interesting part, the FRB loans the legal tender (dollar bills) to the US Gov, in return they get stock in our goverment. The catch is we have to pay interest in the dollar bills that are loaned to us. Its a system designed to fail, because theres nothing to pay back the interest with. Since the money is made out of thin air anyhow, there is no way to pay back the interest. That flawed system has now simply caught up to the failure it was doomed with in the first place when it was invented in 1912.

[Mass_Media]

Why us mid level bastards? The top 1% of the United States holds 40% of the wealth.

who pay 53% of the taxes (currently)

[dacumen]

You do a lot of assuming. I have done work with several unions, most recently with the UFCW, and have done organizing work on the ground in Nicaragua, Mexico and Honduras. I have also worked in factories in Utah that were in desperate need of a union.

That is pretty irrelevant though. Have you ever worked at General Motors? Seems to me you give unions a hell of allot of grief for a guy who doesn't have any first hand experience as an automaker on a production line.

There is a critical need for unionization in large corporations, or even for factory workers, construction works, etc. If we ever expand beyond a couple people it might make sense to join a union. Right now it doesn't. I don't see why that is so hard to understand?

I am a business analyst by trade. General Motors is a client. I am trained to be able to look at a business, look at the numbers, find the fundamentals, catalog the key performance indicators, and make recommendations on how to turn things around, streamline, improve performance, or grow revenue or market share, etc. I get paid very well to give my opinion on matters such as these. My opinion, which is shared by most auto industry and financial analysts by the way, is that the UAW and 'legacy costs' negotiated by the UAW have driven GM, Ford, ad Chrysler to the brink of insolvency and have made all three uncompetitive. It was this uncompetitiveness that drove Daimler-Chrysler to SELL Chrysler to a consortium of private investors. If they had not, DC would be in the same boat the U.S. auto makers are in now. The only way GM can continue as a company, most analysts agree, is if they declare bankruptcy, use the courts to invalidate their union contracts and replace them with more REASONABLE agreements on an employee by employee basis.

I'm fascinated to hear that you're even considering allowing your employees to form a union. As an analyst, that tells me that as an executive team, you have either no interest in or lack the competence to anticipate the needs of your employees! It also tels me that you would rather outsource employee concerns to a third party than hire a devoted HR representative to represent their interests. My company has hired a "C" Level executive JUST TO HANDLE HR! His title is Chief Human Resources Officer. That's about as powerful a voice in the organization as employees can get and it sends a clear message to everyone that management CARES about our needs. Your approach is ironically the opposite. The message you will be sending is "Dudes, we don't give a shit about you or your concerns. If you want us to listen, then form a union!"

Nice approach. Hope that works for you. :D


We're still looking too close to one single thing. I personally think completely electric cars for close range travel is necessary. If you drive 30-40 miles a day, you should be driving a completely electric car. I also think it is a good idea to be thinking about tax credits/rebates to TOTALLY change your existing car into a cleaner burning car. I understand you think about your fiscal responsibility more than your environmental responsibility, which is your own choice. A $35,000 vehicle is just something I don't understand though. I understand people judge others by their material posessions but a car worth $10,000 with $5000 put into can run much farther and cleaner than that $35,000 car. That leaves you with $20,000 to invest in whatever you want.

I can't really judge why you pay for your things, we are all free to spend as we want. My personal opinion is that fiscal responsibility takes a very far second to environmental responsibility. They tie together in the long run but it's hard for us to see it yet. We will all get our chance to realize the impact we have on our world.

Frankly N8, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT on this point. The fact is, there were extentuating circumstances behind me buying my Acura. I WAS driving a '95 Honda Civic with 265,000 miles on it (bought in '97 with 45k miles and paid off in '99) and I loved it! Fact is, when I found out how little it cost to convert to an NGV, I was upset I'd sold the Honda to a college student for peanuts and didn't keep it to convert. Buying the Acura I still consider one of the worst financial mistakes of my adult life, but I sort-of had no choice at the time. Again, VERY long story!

[KC Meat]

Should the automakers be asking the oil companies for help?

[Third_Eye]

Should the automakers be asking the oil companies for help?

I think that is a very fair avenue for them to persue. But it won't happen

[Kaos]

^
^

And it would probably only further their dependence on the oil companies, and increase time to production line cleaner fuel cars most likely.


But you would think, since the big 3 represent a very large slice of potential future profit for the domestic oil companies, that they would be offering a bailout to them in a " baker helping out the miller " sorta way, But then again with the popularity and technology in foreign cars, it wouldnt really be worth the cost, as the foreign makers higher fuel economy is going to the be strong selling point of those rides for years to come.

[Scott the Ghost]

I want my flying cars. They said we would have flying cars in the 21st century, SO WHERE THE FUCK ARE THEY?

Nuclear, it's pronounced NEW'KU'LAR.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01119/skycar_1119673i.jpg

[stanstill]

HELP THESE FUCKERS OUT! Does anyone realize that the auto industry helped make our economy what it is today? How many people know exactly how much auto makers paid out in taxes? Anybody have a clue to how many peoples health care is covered by the auto makers? I work in the industry, take my word for it...HELP THESE FUCKERS OUT! PS...gov't mandates for safety ate up more money than you think, do you think you need five airbags by 2010 or is it a waste of money?

[dacumen]

HELP THESE FUCKERS OUT! Does anyone realize that the auto industry helped make our economy what it is today? How many people know exactly how much auto makers paid out in taxes? Anybody have a clue to how many peoples health care is covered by the auto makers? I work in the industry, take my word for it...HELP THESE FUCKERS OUT! PS...gov't mandates for safety ate up more money than you think, do you think you need five airbags by 2010 or is it a waste of money?

Amen!

[Senor Tapatio]

HELP THESE FUCKERS OUT! Does anyone realize that the auto industry helped make our economy what it is today? How many people know exactly how much auto makers paid out in taxes? Anybody have a clue to how many peoples health care is covered by the auto makers? I work in the industry, take my word for it...HELP THESE FUCKERS OUT! PS...gov't mandates for safety ate up more money than you think, do you think you need five airbags by 2010 or is it a waste of money?
No! and I know that my health ins, or lackthere of, isn't paid for by the big 3. so No.

And their cars suck.

[Scott the Ghost]

HELP THESE FUCKERS OUT! Does anyone realize that the auto industry helped make our economy what it is today? How many people know exactly how much auto makers paid out in taxes? Anybody have a clue to how many peoples health care is covered by the auto makers? I work in the industry, take my word for it...HELP THESE FUCKERS OUT! PS...gov't mandates for safety ate up more money than you think, do you think you need five airbags by 2010 or is it a waste of money?

But where will it end? If we give them money now they will need more money come 2010. Until we see the union budge on their requirements I do not think we should give them money. If their employees want to keep a job they should be willing to give a little on their union demands. The union is a large part of what got the auto industry into the mess it is in today.

[KC Meat]

OK, so they want billions of dollars as a loan; they fully intend to pay it back. Now, prove that in the current economy of banks giving out fewer and fewer loans, which includes car loans, that they'll be able to pay that loan back. How the hell do we/they/anybody even know if they aren't going to eventually fail anyway? If they are, taking billions of tax payer dollars down with them doesn't seem like a good idea, it'll only make things worse.

[Pink]

let them fail!!

we need new car companies that know how to adapt to a changing economy.. not the old ones holding on for dear life to an oil based economy.

- ; )

[s0crat0kes]

So what if I'm a conservative obama supporter? Am I still allowed to answer? I'll answer anyways. Where the fuck is my bail out, allow me to explain. I have over 30,000 in student loans, I live in a shitty duplex hovering just east of rose park. Bums and herione addicts frequently steal cigarette butts from my porche. I am under paid as a web developer. I drive a 1996 toyota tercel that needs a new hood, trunk, and side view mirror. I have 11 toes. I can't read all that well. I have a mark on my lower back where my tale was amputated shortly after birth. I have a drinking problem. I'm drunk right now....on my birthday.... by myself. I have an addiction to midget porn. My midget ex girl friend recently left me....for a midget. I owe thousands of dollars to my bookie, Tony the Shark. I'm a failed professional boxer. My mother never loved me. I have genital warts. I write letters to myself, some time death threats. I was voted off the chess team in high school. I always give money to people reporting to be Princes from Nigeria and get nothing in return. My favorite football team is the Lions. Did I mention I have eleven toes?

Where's my bail out?

[madhatter]

So what if I'm a conservative obama supporter? Am I still allowed to answer? I'll answer anyways. Where the fuck is my bail out, allow me to explain. I have over 30,000 in student loans, I live in a shitty duplex hovering just east of rose park. Bums and herione addicts frequently steal cigarette butts from my porche. I am under paid as a web developer. I drive a 1996 toyota tercel that needs a new hood, trunk, and side view mirror. I have 11 toes. I can't read all that well. I have a mark on my lower back where my tale was amputated shortly after birth. I have a drinking problem. I'm drunk right now....on my birthday.... by myself. I have an addiction to midget porn. My midget ex girl friend recently left me....for a midget. I owe thousands of dollars to my bookie, Tony the Shark. I'm a failed professional boxer. My mother never loved me. I have genital warts. I write letters to myself, some time death threats. I was voted off the chess team in high school. I always give money to people reporting to be Princes from Nigeria and get nothing in return. My favorite football team is the Lions. Did I mention I have eleven toes?

Where's my bail out?
you misspelled porch and heroin.....so you can go ahead and add "bad speller" to your laundry list there.

[Senor Tapatio]

So what if I'm a conservative obama supporter? Am I still allowed to answer? I'll answer anyways. Where the fuck is my bail out, allow me to explain. I have over 30,000 in student loans, I live in a shitty duplex hovering just east of rose park. Bums and herione addicts frequently steal cigarette butts from my porche. I am under paid as a web developer. I drive a 1996 toyota tercel that needs a new hood, trunk, and side view mirror. I have 11 toes. I can't read all that well. I have a mark on my lower back where my tale was amputated shortly after birth. I have a drinking problem. I'm drunk right now....on my birthday.... by myself. I have an addiction to midget porn. My midget ex girl friend recently left me....for a midget. I owe thousands of dollars to my bookie, Tony the Shark. I'm a failed professional boxer. My mother never loved me. I have genital warts. I write letters to myself, some time death threats. I was voted off the chess team in high school. I always give money to people reporting to be Princes from Nigeria and get nothing in return. My favorite football team is the Lions. Did I mention I have eleven toes?

Where's my bail out?
11 toes...sounds like you're doing better than us 10-toed bastards. You need to be taxed!